Short: In many action scenes I see that the director has put some surprises into it, probably to make it more entertaining. Is this just a Hollywood trick or more generally applicable to action scenes?
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Longer: I wanted to know why I never particularly liked the Popeye cartoons as a kid, as compared to the newer cartoons. I studied some of the animation in old Popeye cartoons (downloaded from archive.org) and saw there wasn't really any element of surprise in the action scenes of Popeye animations, although there were sudden plot twists. Now I could be wrong, so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not sure if this was intentional (part of the genre), but I find this type of predictable action scenes less entertaining than those in the more modern cartoon shorts (or cartoon features).
I'm reading the storyboarding book by Don Bluth*, where he promotes to put some element of surprise in action scenes for the viewer, because it is so much more entertaining.
I've studied some life action scenes in an action movie I've seen on tv recently (The Patriot), and this had lots of elements of surprise in the action scenes (in the final show down so many, that it almost became ridiculous to watch).
Now, is this type of development during an action scene typically Hollywood, or is it more generally true for visual storytelling?
*Note: A nice book, but Bluth leaves out too much (only 112 pages). It's more like an inspirational book than a study book, although it has some useful pointers. Bluth uses some of his features as examples (mainly The Secret of NIMH and All Dogs Go To Heaven).
Element of surprise in action scenes
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
This depends upon what you are defining as an element of surprise. I really didn't enjoy the old popeye cartoons mainly because it really was essentially the same cartoon repeated over and over with only slight differences. Now that being said there are still many elements of surprise in the action sequences. For instance one episode Popeye turns around and checks on Ms. Olive Oil only to be suddenly bashed over the head with a piano. Despite being a very repetitive cartoon and having an expected result (Popeye and spinach=Pluto losing) there still are elements of surprise though they tend to be the same types of surprises between episodes, be it a piano, or a safe, Popeye is still getting smashed. Likely you didn't like them for the same reason that I didn't, the end always was the same, and the path to the end didn't offer much uniqueness between episodes.saw there wasn't really any element of surprise in the action scenes of Popeye animations
On the other hand another cartoon with the same type of repetitive plot always was enjoyable to watch for me. The roadrunner and Wiley E. Coyote cartoons were very enjoyable to watch. Mainly I see them as being successful due to the variety of methods that Coyote attempts to capture the roadrunner. Plus the hero/anti-hero mix of the episodes. In many ways you see both Coyote and the Roadrunner as both hero/anti-hero. You want the Coyote to catch the Roadrunner, but at the same time you want the Roadrunner to escape.
Another difference is the plot development, Popeye episodes never really seemed to have the same story development. There never seemed to be much of a beginning, climax, and end. Having key story elements is essential to a good animation.
Brian
Sometimes in order to accomplish something you need to not sleep.
coming from a background in Screenwriting, i ve had a lot of thoughts on this subject.
putting in suprise elements merely to jazz up a scene can be usefull, as long as its within the context of the story. its also a dangerous habit to develop, as you could find youself adding additional elements to a scene, when their not needed. you must ask yourself, if the scenes not working the way you want, why? adding a suprise into the mix will not automatically fix the scene, more likely it will be too much of asuprise for viewers, and will stand out, but not in a good way.
in conclusion (how formal) plan ahead. make sure the scene works before animating. if theres not enough *jazz* find a way to enhance the action or cut the scene altogether. killing your babys is the hardest thing any creative person has to do. a scene we really like is not working? it has to go....
a good book for scriptwriting, also applies to animatiion (visual storytelling) is Syd Fields Screenwriting handbook.
jay b
putting in suprise elements merely to jazz up a scene can be usefull, as long as its within the context of the story. its also a dangerous habit to develop, as you could find youself adding additional elements to a scene, when their not needed. you must ask yourself, if the scenes not working the way you want, why? adding a suprise into the mix will not automatically fix the scene, more likely it will be too much of asuprise for viewers, and will stand out, but not in a good way.
in conclusion (how formal) plan ahead. make sure the scene works before animating. if theres not enough *jazz* find a way to enhance the action or cut the scene altogether. killing your babys is the hardest thing any creative person has to do. a scene we really like is not working? it has to go....
a good book for scriptwriting, also applies to animatiion (visual storytelling) is Syd Fields Screenwriting handbook.
jay b
Blessings for you, but none for me....
Actually, on Amazon.com this books gets far better reviews (and more stars):Regul8R wrote:a good book for scriptwriting, also applies to animatiion (visual storytelling) is Syd Fields Screenwriting handbook.
The Tools of Screenwriting : A Writer's Guide to the Craft and Elements of a Screenplay by David Howard
Is this book any good in your opinion?
He also wrote a second book for advanced screenwriters:
How to Build a Great Screenplay : A Master Class in Storytelling for Film
rasheed: i have'nt read those. i'll have to look out for them.
theres alot of different books available. i try to only get those whose writers have actually been involved in the business. Syd Fields credits are as a teacher, many students who are now top writes in their own right.
for anyone interested in the crafting of storys, from a screenwriters perspective, i'd recommend William Goldmans "Adventures in Screen Trade" and its follow up "Which Lie Did I Tell?"
its an excellent read for anyone interested in visual storytelling, not too advanced for those unfamiliar with scripts. for the record william goldman wrote marathon man (novel and script), absolute power, princess bride and the seminal classic butch cassidy and sundance kid among many others.
if you like reading and movies, you cant go wrong.
and now back to the thread
jay b
theres alot of different books available. i try to only get those whose writers have actually been involved in the business. Syd Fields credits are as a teacher, many students who are now top writes in their own right.
for anyone interested in the crafting of storys, from a screenwriters perspective, i'd recommend William Goldmans "Adventures in Screen Trade" and its follow up "Which Lie Did I Tell?"
its an excellent read for anyone interested in visual storytelling, not too advanced for those unfamiliar with scripts. for the record william goldman wrote marathon man (novel and script), absolute power, princess bride and the seminal classic butch cassidy and sundance kid among many others.
if you like reading and movies, you cant go wrong.
and now back to the thread
jay b
Blessings for you, but none for me....
BTW If I only could write this kind of stuff, I'd be a very happy man:
Memorable Quotes from "Monty Python's Flying Circus"
Sketches from MPFC have a lot of unexpected twists in them (also in their action scenes and animations) and are very entertaining (or annoying if you dislike absurdism). IMO it's special type of misdirection, establishing a situation and putting the whole thing completely out of context.
Am I correct in assuming that generally speaking misdirection is the basis for unexpected action?
If that is true, then this would make some of the best animators in fact stage artists, or even illusionists. And it would be worth while studying these disciplines as well.
Memorable Quotes from "Monty Python's Flying Circus"
Sketches from MPFC have a lot of unexpected twists in them (also in their action scenes and animations) and are very entertaining (or annoying if you dislike absurdism). IMO it's special type of misdirection, establishing a situation and putting the whole thing completely out of context.
Am I correct in assuming that generally speaking misdirection is the basis for unexpected action?
If that is true, then this would make some of the best animators in fact stage artists, or even illusionists. And it would be worth while studying these disciplines as well.