Hello all, I finally signed up so that I can begin this discussion in greater detail than I've seen in the prior posts. We all know that AS slows down the audio to stay in sync. We also know many tips and techniques on how to improve this. But there's something I can't understand when I read everyone's posts about this issue. It seems as though everyone else finds a way to just live with this and work around it. I on the other hand, even after improving things, find the timing so inaccurate that the program becomes impossible to use. This only happens when I have multiple characters. I believe it might be the way I rig my characters...
The style that I use is cut-out animation. (vectors, not scanned images) I have 4 views of each character inside a character folder. I toggle inbetween views using visability. And each portion of the body that moves is on it's own layer. So in the end, a single character might have 100 layers or so. (take into account that their are 3 or 4 views of the head in each view of the body...that's why so many things)
So when I have a scene with more than 3 characters in it, the animation is impossible to complete. If I select, "allow frame skipping", then everything is too innacurate to animate in time. (like lip sync for instance. I do that by hand rather than using papagayo)
So is my approach the problem? Should I not have so many pre-drawn layers?
And here's the main question I have to ask. (and please don't be offended because I AM a moho fan) But is Toon Boom capable of this type of work load without becoming unusable? Anyone out there know if Toon Boom can do this? I'm afriad to spend months learning to use that software just to run into the same problem.
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No need to give the basic re-posted suggestions on how to improve the slowing down. --- I've applied all that knowledge and need to know if I'm experiencing the same problem but on a much larger scale than other people.
The fact that Anime Studio Slow's Down
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
200+ layers?
And AS slows down? OH MY GOD!!!!
I am so surprised.
All kidding aside... Is this an exaggeration? 100 layers for each character? Possibly 2 or even 3 characters in one file? A 100 layers? Really? 100 layers? Or is this like saying:
Maybe you can consolidate some of your layers. I can't image having that many layers for one character! I thought I was over the top with layers... I've never gotten even CLOSE to 100 layers on my most complex models. Maybe 100 shapes... definately more than 100 shapes... but on really complex characters.
If you had a 100 layers in a Photoshop document, would you complain to Adobe that it slows down and the files are too big to work with?
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This is just my immediate concern unrelated to the topic. Even with simple files you are still not going to have perfect audio sync when playing back in real time. I find scrubbing slowly and looking at the wave form helps with lip sync. Also, looping very small chunks or phrases in real time works well. I never lip sync the entire chunk of audio. I always break it down into phrases. Then I go back and render, tweak, render, tweak.
I use ASP on a slooooow old Mac and still am able to do lip sync. I don't have perfect sync when playing back in real time but I do have sync when scrubbing slowing over a few frames. (I use Papagayo and export to use with bone lip sync in ASP but I still tweak it and sometimes will just do the lip sync right in ASP when it's short dialog.)
I will also switch to my old sloooow PC to do lip sync because it's newer and faster than the Mac... but still... it is usable.
I don't know ANYTHING about ToonBoom. Try the demo and put 100 layers in it would be my suggestion.
-vern
And AS slows down? OH MY GOD!!!!
I am so surprised.
All kidding aside... Is this an exaggeration? 100 layers for each character? Possibly 2 or even 3 characters in one file? A 100 layers? Really? 100 layers? Or is this like saying:
Do you really need all those layers for the whole character in one file? Can you streamline your production so that you are animating one scene from one angle. You can still have multiple angles just cut them together from separate renders."Dude! I have like... a 100 bazillion layers!"
Maybe you can consolidate some of your layers. I can't image having that many layers for one character! I thought I was over the top with layers... I've never gotten even CLOSE to 100 layers on my most complex models. Maybe 100 shapes... definately more than 100 shapes... but on really complex characters.
If you had a 100 layers in a Photoshop document, would you complain to Adobe that it slows down and the files are too big to work with?
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This is just my immediate concern unrelated to the topic. Even with simple files you are still not going to have perfect audio sync when playing back in real time. I find scrubbing slowly and looking at the wave form helps with lip sync. Also, looping very small chunks or phrases in real time works well. I never lip sync the entire chunk of audio. I always break it down into phrases. Then I go back and render, tweak, render, tweak.
I use ASP on a slooooow old Mac and still am able to do lip sync. I don't have perfect sync when playing back in real time but I do have sync when scrubbing slowing over a few frames. (I use Papagayo and export to use with bone lip sync in ASP but I still tweak it and sometimes will just do the lip sync right in ASP when it's short dialog.)
I will also switch to my old sloooow PC to do lip sync because it's newer and faster than the Mac... but still... it is usable.
I don't know ANYTHING about ToonBoom. Try the demo and put 100 layers in it would be my suggestion.
-vern
I'm glad I got Vern. You're like a professor when it comes to these forums. lol
I just want to say, I'm not complaining about moho. I also asked if it was my approach that was wrong. And I believe you if you say that it is indeed a poor approach.
So how else should I be setting up a cut-out style character? I understand your suggestion of rendering different views seperately. But does that mean I can't build a "puppet" that has all the basic views? So is it wrong for me to be putting each body part on it's own layer? Should I have most of the character drawn on one layer?
Thanks for the suggestions, seriously I'm not arguing or being a wise ass...perhaps I have to re-think how I do this.
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p.s.
I guess this "isolate everything" approach comes from my experience in audio production. That's where I'm the expert...I'm attempting to broaden my ability however, rather than just working on the backing track, dialogue, and sound effects.
I just want to say, I'm not complaining about moho. I also asked if it was my approach that was wrong. And I believe you if you say that it is indeed a poor approach.
So how else should I be setting up a cut-out style character? I understand your suggestion of rendering different views seperately. But does that mean I can't build a "puppet" that has all the basic views? So is it wrong for me to be putting each body part on it's own layer? Should I have most of the character drawn on one layer?
Thanks for the suggestions, seriously I'm not arguing or being a wise ass...perhaps I have to re-think how I do this.
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p.s.
I guess this "isolate everything" approach comes from my experience in audio production. That's where I'm the expert...I'm attempting to broaden my ability however, rather than just working on the backing track, dialogue, and sound effects.
Even with cut out style animation why 100 layers?
Hands - 2
forearm - 2
Bicep - 2
Chest - 1
hips - 1
thigh -2
calf -2
feet - 2
Head - 1
Facial features - 10-20?
So that's 30 at least... and if you have all views in one file... I can see how you could get to 100 layers... maybe I need to recheck my files and count layers? It could be I have 100 layers!!!! Good grief!
... I just woke up for goodness sakes... 100 layers sounded like a lot to me.
I apologize for going a bit nuts there.
Even so you could still do some things to reduce layer count. If this isn't going to SWF you could use one image for the legs and arms and use bones to distort them. I would still suggest not having all views in the file unless you need it.
Another suggestion would be to keep the head or mouth layers for lip sync as separate files. Do all the lip sync there and then import into the character files. You would have minimum number of layers and it might play back faster.
I agree that it would be nice to have better syncing of sound but to be realistic I don't have that with ANY animation program I've ever used. I always have a wimpy machine and never get real time play back. I've always used 3D software in the past and never could get sound synced to playback in the software.
-vern
Hands - 2
forearm - 2
Bicep - 2
Chest - 1
hips - 1
thigh -2
calf -2
feet - 2
Head - 1
Facial features - 10-20?
So that's 30 at least... and if you have all views in one file... I can see how you could get to 100 layers... maybe I need to recheck my files and count layers? It could be I have 100 layers!!!! Good grief!
... I just woke up for goodness sakes... 100 layers sounded like a lot to me.
I apologize for going a bit nuts there.
Even so you could still do some things to reduce layer count. If this isn't going to SWF you could use one image for the legs and arms and use bones to distort them. I would still suggest not having all views in the file unless you need it.
Another suggestion would be to keep the head or mouth layers for lip sync as separate files. Do all the lip sync there and then import into the character files. You would have minimum number of layers and it might play back faster.
I agree that it would be nice to have better syncing of sound but to be realistic I don't have that with ANY animation program I've ever used. I always have a wimpy machine and never get real time play back. I've always used 3D software in the past and never could get sound synced to playback in the software.
-vern
You know, that's an excellent suggestion about the lip sync. I use switch layers for eyes, eyebrows, mouth...ect. Do you think it's possible to actually keep my entire head on a seperate file, animate all facial expressions in that seperate file, and then import it to the actual scene, add it to frame 0, replacing whatever "stand-in" head that I had in place? So hypethetically, I could just pop all the heads to my characters back on to their "puppets" right before rendering. (Ofcourse, after doing some basic touch ups.)
Well, I'll have to try that...but back to the original issue. I'm actually a bit worried now. If after all it isn't too abnormal to have about 90 layers per character, then I'm back to wondering what to do about the 21 characters I've already created. (mind you, they're all just silly, 1 dimensional, drawings. But eye popping animation was never the point, having a well designed puppet that can be quickly adjusted in order to speed up production was the point)
It's to bad AS can't take advantage of multi-core processors with hyperthreading. This was originally going to be my fix for the problem. I was literally a few weeks away from investing in a $3500 Alienware desktop with 4 processors all factory overclocked. But then I did a bit more reading on these forums and thankfully found out that it would have done me almost no good. lol Thank God for these forums.
Oh I just wanted to add one more thing about the sound slowing down. I know that you can correct that with the "allow frame skipping". But if I don't even need the sound file yet...if I just have many characters that are physically interacting...that's a situation where I would need to not skip my frames. And yet, even without a sound file loading, the animation plays back in slow motion. So it's not necessarily always about lip sync. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Well, I'll have to try that...but back to the original issue. I'm actually a bit worried now. If after all it isn't too abnormal to have about 90 layers per character, then I'm back to wondering what to do about the 21 characters I've already created. (mind you, they're all just silly, 1 dimensional, drawings. But eye popping animation was never the point, having a well designed puppet that can be quickly adjusted in order to speed up production was the point)
It's to bad AS can't take advantage of multi-core processors with hyperthreading. This was originally going to be my fix for the problem. I was literally a few weeks away from investing in a $3500 Alienware desktop with 4 processors all factory overclocked. But then I did a bit more reading on these forums and thankfully found out that it would have done me almost no good. lol Thank God for these forums.
Oh I just wanted to add one more thing about the sound slowing down. I know that you can correct that with the "allow frame skipping". But if I don't even need the sound file yet...if I just have many characters that are physically interacting...that's a situation where I would need to not skip my frames. And yet, even without a sound file loading, the animation plays back in slow motion. So it's not necessarily always about lip sync. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Yes you could keep the heads in a seperate file and just import them. Just bind the head to the head bone and you can even keep any head bone animation done in the full rig.
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What you describe as a problem with speed and performance is the way AS is right now. At this point in time the playback issues are what they are. You can either live with it and wait for updates or you can try to find something else to use. There is no graphics acceleration for AS. I suppose a faster processor might help... I don't know I haven't tested this. Maybe someday they will add in some kind of acceleration for graphics cards... but I'm not going to groan and moan about till that happens. I just try to find ways to get around it.
Even if there was another program like ToonBoom that might be faster... I wouldn't bother switching. I LOVE ASP even with all it's flaws... I've invested a lot of time and effort into it. I feel too old to try and learn something else now.
I ran into a problem with having too many bones. I had over 300 bones in a head rig. Ran really fast on a PC but was totally unusable on a Mac... any Mac... even a fast new Mac.
Obviously if 300 bones worked great all the time and there hadn't been a problem I wouldn't have done anything to change it. But I had to find a better way to do things with fewer bones. I started to write custom scripts that eliminated more than 3/4 or the bones.
I am still working on a "turnable" body rig also using scripts.
As far as previewing animations I use the AS playback to get a general idea but I always do a quick preview render to see the "real" result. You can't trust playback in a program like AS. the final result is the only true judge of playback speed.
I will say that turning "skip frames" on is pretty close to "real time" and is good for judging the general timing. More complex files of course are going to skip more frames.
-vern
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What you describe as a problem with speed and performance is the way AS is right now. At this point in time the playback issues are what they are. You can either live with it and wait for updates or you can try to find something else to use. There is no graphics acceleration for AS. I suppose a faster processor might help... I don't know I haven't tested this. Maybe someday they will add in some kind of acceleration for graphics cards... but I'm not going to groan and moan about till that happens. I just try to find ways to get around it.
Even if there was another program like ToonBoom that might be faster... I wouldn't bother switching. I LOVE ASP even with all it's flaws... I've invested a lot of time and effort into it. I feel too old to try and learn something else now.
I ran into a problem with having too many bones. I had over 300 bones in a head rig. Ran really fast on a PC but was totally unusable on a Mac... any Mac... even a fast new Mac.
Obviously if 300 bones worked great all the time and there hadn't been a problem I wouldn't have done anything to change it. But I had to find a better way to do things with fewer bones. I started to write custom scripts that eliminated more than 3/4 or the bones.
I am still working on a "turnable" body rig also using scripts.
As far as previewing animations I use the AS playback to get a general idea but I always do a quick preview render to see the "real" result. You can't trust playback in a program like AS. the final result is the only true judge of playback speed.
I will say that turning "skip frames" on is pretty close to "real time" and is good for judging the general timing. More complex files of course are going to skip more frames.
-vern
My last project had characters which consisted of more than 100 layers each, and I had up to 8 of them in one scene complete with lipsync. No, wait: there was that chicken dance, with about 12 of them in a row ...
But my characters were vector only. Reasonably complex, but still vector. However, I've noticed some circumstances where playback influenced sound playback:
1. Video enabled. I had a video track for each scene with the animatic. If this was visible, playback suffered.
2. Onion skin. Only one frame marked as visible could destroy smooth playback.
3. Moving images. Sometimes I had to use several props which had been pre-rendered, and if more than 5 of them moved, it became a problem. No problem with motionless images, though.
My advice would be: switch off (visibility) whatever you don't need in a scene. Sound playback should be normal as long as you only have one character visible.
Finally I never judged the timing just by playback in AS, but only by watching the rendered QT.
But my characters were vector only. Reasonably complex, but still vector. However, I've noticed some circumstances where playback influenced sound playback:
1. Video enabled. I had a video track for each scene with the animatic. If this was visible, playback suffered.
2. Onion skin. Only one frame marked as visible could destroy smooth playback.
3. Moving images. Sometimes I had to use several props which had been pre-rendered, and if more than 5 of them moved, it became a problem. No problem with motionless images, though.
My advice would be: switch off (visibility) whatever you don't need in a scene. Sound playback should be normal as long as you only have one character visible.
Finally I never judged the timing just by playback in AS, but only by watching the rendered QT.
Of course, it would help if Anime Studio would take advantage of the GPU that is present in all modern desktop computers (not in all laptops, though). However, I realize that would mean a complete rewrite of the code base, and some extra coders on the development. The OpenGL framework seems to be a pain to program for, but it speeds up things considerably. It is available on all platforms, but I could imagine there would be considerable platform specific issues breaking the cross-platform compatibility of Anime Studio.
Probably will never happen, but I can dream, can't I?
Probably will never happen, but I can dream, can't I?
My characters do have a lot of layers (just my hand switch layers take up 40 or 50) and I've had as many as 12 characters all in the same scene without anything slowing down (so figure at least 800-1000 layers there) and there were no slow down issues but, as ST says, I was using vector layers and they are fast. My characters were indeed "cutout" but cutouts drawn by vector (which to me is the only way to go but that's just me).
What happens when you turn off visibility for all the characters except the one you're working on? (I don't mean layer visibility -- I mean turning off the eye icon at the layer menu). I would think that would speed things up because AS wouldn't be redrawing anything. I don't have anything I can try this on to see if it makes a difference.
What happens when you turn off visibility for all the characters except the one you're working on? (I don't mean layer visibility -- I mean turning off the eye icon at the layer menu). I would think that would speed things up because AS wouldn't be redrawing anything. I don't have anything I can try this on to see if it makes a difference.
Masking , transparency, these can impact a great deal even though they are approximated in the preview. Onionskins, turn them off to check your synching, the preview can virtually stop with many onions.
I try to stay away from masking anyway, you end up with heaps of layers no swf render and I have seen it confuse the software as well as myself.
Turn off all your background images especially... anything you don't need.
Create a short loops like Vern says using ctrl right and left on gauge of timeline.
I hope your using fast buffer and turning off anti aliasing and transparency in the display quality details.
Try and stick to more shapes rather than layers, in the long run its easier to handle the animation anyway, personally I'd love to be able to hide certain ctrl points and vector construction curves (wait a minute isn't there a script for that?) woohooo.
I am still finding new ways of using anime, nut these methods have worked for me thus far.
I try to stay away from masking anyway, you end up with heaps of layers no swf render and I have seen it confuse the software as well as myself.
Turn off all your background images especially... anything you don't need.
Create a short loops like Vern says using ctrl right and left on gauge of timeline.
I hope your using fast buffer and turning off anti aliasing and transparency in the display quality details.
Try and stick to more shapes rather than layers, in the long run its easier to handle the animation anyway, personally I'd love to be able to hide certain ctrl points and vector construction curves (wait a minute isn't there a script for that?) woohooo.
I am still finding new ways of using anime, nut these methods have worked for me thus far.
mkelley wrote:My characters do have a lot of layers (just my hand switch layers take up 40 or 50) and I've had as many as 12 characters all in the same scene without anything slowing down (so figure at least 800-1000 layers there) and there were no slow down issues but, as ST says, I was using vector layers and they are fast. My characters were indeed "cutout" but cutouts drawn by vector (which to me is the only way to go but that's just me).
What happens when you turn off visibility for all the characters except the one you're working on? (I don't mean layer visibility -- I mean turning off the eye icon at the layer menu). I would think that would speed things up because AS wouldn't be redrawing anything. I don't have anything I can try this on to see if it makes a difference.
Wow! No slow down issues? Do you mind posting the make up of your computer as an example for what I may need? Processor...ghz...whether it's dual-core...ram ? And let me know if you personally think a video card can play a major role. While my computer is excellent for audio production...I never thought I'd need a high quality video card for this computer. So let me know if you think that might be a major factor. I just have a basic video card.
As for visibility...I actually tried that as a test. I turned the "eyes" off of every single character (about 10 or so) and only left 1 character on. Then, I decided to even turn that one off so that I was staring at absolutely nothing but a bone layer. lol I did this as a test without allowing frame skipping, and it suprisingly didn't improve a single thing. This doesn't appear to be the case for others...which makes me wonder if I'm doing something specifically wrong. Watching the bones moving, I could tell that even when I removed the sound track, the animation was playing back in "slow motion". This isn't anything new, but I figured I'd atleast respond to some of the questions people were asking me. Lastly, I do turn off auto-antialising and I select fast buffer during playback.
I believe this might be one of those issues where you just sort of hit a wall and learn to live with it...but I'm not sure if I can. My last hope would probably be to change my computer. But without taking advantage of multi-core processors, I'm not necessarily confident that will help too much. Thank you all for your excellent remarks. Seriously, you gave me quite a bit of perspective.
For anyone that's interested, I'm considering simply flirting with Toon Boom by learning to rig one of my characters in that program. Then I'll copy that character like 10 times in one file and just do a few simple play back tests to see how it works with my approach. I figure comparing the two programs is the smartest thing I can do at this point. I'm still at the point where I can import all my cut out pieces into another program and maintain most of my 21 characters....so it's worth some experimenting. I'm probably going to end up using a little of each software. Thanks again.
You should also consider the possibility of a fucked up file. This can happen to everyone, especially in the creation progress when things get changed and erased and created a lot. Sometimes the only cure is to start from scratch.
Before you go into the tedious task to replicate your characters in another program, you should make sure that it isn't the fault of a bad file.
I'd recommend to start with a fresh file in AS. Import one or three images, then just duplicate those layers as often as you need. Build a fast bone rig, bind the layers. Do some animation with this monster. Then duplicate the whole monster and place them spomewhere esle on the screen. Now test the playback.
Before you go into the tedious task to replicate your characters in another program, you should make sure that it isn't the fault of a bad file.
I'd recommend to start with a fresh file in AS. Import one or three images, then just duplicate those layers as often as you need. Build a fast bone rig, bind the layers. Do some animation with this monster. Then duplicate the whole monster and place them spomewhere esle on the screen. Now test the playback.
Actually, the computer I run AS on isn't my newest (or fastest, or even the one with the most RAM). But it's pretty nice -- dual 3.6 Ghz processors, 2gb of RAM.
The last is the thing I'd make most sure of in your system -- you want at least 2gb (4 would be better) because I'm guessing if this scene isn't all loaded in memory that could account for a lot of things. I have no idea how AS works in that regard, but having more RAM is never a Bad Idea.
As for ToonBoom -- I have it and I have *never* been able to do anything with it. Not even one second of animation. It's not well suited for my style (which is cutout) -- it's really all about cell animation. The method of rigging a cutout is incredibly complicated and convoluted (all, IMHO, of course) and that's what has completely stopped me dead in my tracks (why would I want to switch? Only because TB seems to have more professional tools in certain areas like perspective and layer management). The bone system in AS, on the other hand, is intuitive and easy for me.
You probably don't want to share, but if you do want to see if it's a system thing and want to zip up a file and send to me I'd be glad to test it on my computer to see. But for sure get enough RAM (you can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much RAM or disk space :>)
The last is the thing I'd make most sure of in your system -- you want at least 2gb (4 would be better) because I'm guessing if this scene isn't all loaded in memory that could account for a lot of things. I have no idea how AS works in that regard, but having more RAM is never a Bad Idea.
As for ToonBoom -- I have it and I have *never* been able to do anything with it. Not even one second of animation. It's not well suited for my style (which is cutout) -- it's really all about cell animation. The method of rigging a cutout is incredibly complicated and convoluted (all, IMHO, of course) and that's what has completely stopped me dead in my tracks (why would I want to switch? Only because TB seems to have more professional tools in certain areas like perspective and layer management). The bone system in AS, on the other hand, is intuitive and easy for me.
You probably don't want to share, but if you do want to see if it's a system thing and want to zip up a file and send to me I'd be glad to test it on my computer to see. But for sure get enough RAM (you can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much RAM or disk space :>)
Don't wast you time or money. Try the TB demo. You will see how you can paint just like photoshop with the drawing tools. They are vector and using more points than AS. Working with large files in any animation program, you will run out of memory. AS beats TB because you working with one point at a time.
Dale
Dale