Moho Forum

Right before the Anime Studio 7 beta started I was actually developing an application that could read and work with AS file format. My goal was not to create another "AS" application but to create a project management tool for AS, add some project consolidation, and be able to save from v6 to v5.6 for those who needed it.

The core format of this experimental application was XML. All of the work I did it on it so far to convert the AS file format to XML. I was hoping to use that as a format for online project management and sharing. At the last point where I stopped, I was able to load an AS document, read in a vector layer and draw it on screen in SVG format in very simple peaked points only but still, it was an AS vector layer in SVG format. I was hoping to use that format to create very basic thumbnails for my project management tool. Currently you can't save or extract a thumbnail from AS. There is another application that is kind of a file manager for AS but it uses AS to render thumbnails. I wanted to read and create my own.

Then.... BOOM! AS 7. It had the main feature I was going to start with... project consolidation and obviously a "different" file format. So I put it all on hold for the time being.

It was kind of cool. I was able to open an AS file and list all the layers and layer types and some of the properties of those layers in a collapsible "tree" view. Right before I stopped development I was trying to save the XML format BACK to the AS format.

I don't know if I will keep working on this again at some point. Hopefully yes.

-vern

barryem wrote:I don't see problem. I bought the upgrade for $130. The new price is $200. That seems like a fair discount to me.

Seriously, who pays list price?

The upgrade discount from 6 to 7 is not much of a discount, for the pro version. The other poster was right that skipping a version is the better deal. I was hoping for more stability and speed going from 5 to 6 but didn't see it, and in retrospect the new features in 6 didn't really do it for me. Maybe for those going from 5 to 7 the 30% discount is fair, but it doesn't seem compelling for a ver 6 to 7.

Sure, someone making money it's a different story. I bet less than 10% of license buyers actually make a living with the software, but that's a guess.

One thing that let me down, is apparantly you can't use Poser content without also owning Poser, which is another $150 or so. Why are they forcing Poser, why not use Blender? (of course they are selling Poser too).

OK, no problem. But I don't like paying for features that I can't use. Or another way, If I look at my cost of using the features in the program it's $300 range.

I need to use all my spare cash to buy gold and de-hydrated water. Cost of food going up, but TVs Computers software and most unnecessary are going down with the economy.

I really wish I didn't do the upgrade to 6 because 7 if it works stable looks like much more of an upgrade. Buying every upgrade of all the software I buy is too much for me. Yeah, physics sounds fun, but i've never needed it up to now. Maybe I should wait for version 8 or 9 if not going elsewhere.

GCharb wrote:Many things I do not like with this release,

Such as ... ?
There are clearly a lot of positives for v.7 - but what are the negatives?

Mmmmm - having checked the download area in SmithMicro and after experimenting to see if my registration code for ASPro5 gives me access to the discounted upgrade rate for v.7 (it does > around £89 at today's rate of exchange), I'm starting to think this could be an affordable purchase, even on just a pension.

Thanks to all who have added responses to my original post.
Once again this forum and its members have proved to be really helpful.

??????????????????

This is the same rehash of the version 6 upgrade. SM is not giving much in the way of a discounted upgrade. Like I said last time I will wait till the price comes down before upgrading. It did and I purchased v6 on a half off sale on the upgrade price. I will wait again for a commensurable offer. I have to agree that the upgrade price is no deal at all.

rogermate wrote:

barryem wrote:I don't see problem. I bought the upgrade for $130. The new price is $200. That seems like a fair discount to me.

Seriously, who pays list price?

The upgrade discount from 6 to 7 is not much of a discount, for the pro version. The other poster was right that skipping a version is the better deal. I was hoping for more stability and speed going from 5 to 6 but didn't see it, and in retrospect the new features in 6 didn't really do it for me. Maybe for those going from 5 to 7 the 30% discount is fair, but it doesn't seem compelling for a ver 6 to 7.

Sure, someone making money it's a different story. I bet less than 10% of license buyers actually make a living with the software, but that's a guess.

One thing that let me down, is apparantly you can't use Poser content without also owning Poser, which is another $150 or so. Why are they forcing Poser, why not use Blender? (of course they are selling Poser too).

OK, no problem. But I don't like paying for features that I can't use. Or another way, If I look at my cost of using the features in the program it's $300 range.

I need to use all my spare cash to buy gold and de-hydrated water. Cost of food going up, but TVs Computers software and most unnecessary are going down with the economy.

I really wish I didn't do the upgrade to 6 because 7 if it works stable looks like much more of an upgrade. Buying every upgrade of all the software I buy is too much for me. Yeah, physics sounds fun, but i've never needed it up to now. Maybe I should wait for version 8 or 9 if not going elsewhere.

Smith Micro is a corporation, obligated by law and also by common sense and their sense of fairness to make money for their shareholders and I suspect that's what they're doing. They probably operate with the assumption that when they produce a product priced to make them a profit, some people can afford to buy it and others can't.

It's also fairly obvious to me that someone at Smith Micro has gone to a lot of trouble to try to make AS 7 something their customers will want to buy.

I still don't see the problem.

Barry

mohlar wrote:Such as ... ?

Though I like many of the new features of ASP Pro 7, like the multicore processing, the better file handling, better shaders for imported 3D, physics to some point, curve profile etc.

I which they had not gone so deep into 3D.

ASP is a 2D aniamtion package, well, it used to be, this is why I bought it in the first place, now it is an Hybrid 2d/3d package.

The problem is, none of the 3D tools are at pro level, like you would find in dedicated 3D softwares, like Softimage, Maya and even Blender. Import and render Poser animation? ASP is not a 3d renderer, so the quality will never be there, you render in Poser, high quality, or any other 3D software then you compose.

No professionals or studios, to my knowledge, would really use them, they would instead render full quality 3D then compose the whole thing.

All the time Mike spent on those should have been spent on new 2D features, like better color registration, better graph editor, the most important part of any animation package as any pro animator would tell you.

I would have loved more solid stereo render tools, much improvment is needed on the blend morph, a sdk, so scripters could make more usefull plugins.

I would have loved z-depth for control points, a gizmo to assemble 3D decors, better perspective views, real orthographic views.

The list goes on.

This said, I upgraded, because I feel the upgrade is well worth it, but I am afraid that ASP will get more and more 3D toys and less and less time will be spent on usefull 2D tools.

Of course this is my opinion but if you look at other more expensive softwares on the market, they stay in the range of 2D, with some usefull multiplane tools.

G

Taking GCharb's comments at face value, I agree one hundred percent. In a way, some of the new stuff just looks like low hanging fruit, not valuable production upgrades for 2D animation.

The face value remark is because Apple Computer is making it very expensive to upgrade hardware more than a couple of years old. And, this upgrade only runs on the new version of Snow Leopard. In short, I'm not going to worry about an ASP upgrade until I see an improved graph (fcurve) editor, or an easier way to draw transition frames, anywhere in the timeline.

I agree with Vern here, SM is a business that is aimed at making money, they have a large user base and shareholders.

Look at any large companies, their upgrade scheme is similar.

If you cant afford the price upgrade then the software is just a toy for you, a mean to have fun, then go with Debut, less expensive and aimed at beginners and non profit use.

Now, if you are a serious user and need the more advanced features, then you should be able to pay for them.

I, personaly, do not mind the price of the upgrade, because I intend to make good with it.

G

The upgrade, or whole application price for ASP is comparatively low - as little as a third of what it might cost to upgrade an Adobe product. And, I understand that the system usage restricts what OS it can run on. But, since my situation requires a new computer henceforth (I just got tech support from Nvidia and it's situation ugly), I'll be buying a new windows (not Mac) machine before upgrading ASP. By then there might even be a serious fcurve editor. From the above comments, the graph editor currently in ASP remains very toy-like.

As ponysmasher said, if you make money with it then the price is very attractive.

The truth is, if you make money, which you normaly should with a software labeled as pro, money should not be a problem, if you are an animator wannabee, then the basic software should be good for you until you can go pro and then invest in a more professional software.

Look at other software, like ToonBoom Studio which is 299$ while Debut is 49$ or Animate or Animate pro. which are 699$ and 1999$ while ASP is 199$.

Animate upgrade is 299$ while Animate Pro crossgrade from Animate is 1299$

AS Debut and ASP are very well priced in my opinion!

G

I bet they never fixed the Illustrator importer???

barryem wrote: I still don't see the problem.
Barry

You're not supposed to see it. You're supposed to upgrade right away, or even pay the full price. Basic economic theory states that a seller with complete pricing power (such as a monopolist) will price a product so that each buyer will pay the highest price that each buyer is capable and willing to pay for a product. Theory aside, most states have laws which limit arbitrary discrimination among buyers when taken to extremes.

People like me and other shareholders appreciate when you pay up. I don't see a problem with you doing that. Hopefully you also don't see a problem with my going just a tad deeper into basic economic theory, vis a vis your simplified corporate fiduciary model.

Perhaps the most important factors that the publisher should consider is the very high elasticities of substitution which assignable to the choices a potential buyer holds when considering an upgrade of this software. He could also purchase some cases of beer along with the free download of synfig, blender, etc. Given that the upgrade product is not really needed by many of the potential buyers - with the exception of those paid professionals who need the upgrade for a particular job - the publisher ought to be sensitive to pricing issues.

Let's assume we all understand the minimal marginal cost for production of a unit of the product as fixed costs have been made, as well as the minimal costs of advertising an "upgrade". If you are genuinely concerned about the profitability of the enterprise, then you ought to be concerned about pricing the product so that their profits are maximized.
If you want the company to make a lot of money (maybe you are a shareholder or are dating one), why wouldn't you urge that they charge $1,000 for the upgrade? We both probably can agree its too much. They would make a lot more money by pricing it cheaper.

For buyers who have other options, as upgrade prices rise so does the temptation to wait out an upgrade, and test/use an alternative program. There are a number of near "costless" options, but not entirely free give the "transaction cost" involved when installing and learning a new program. The problem for the publisher is that such a transaction cost also applies when prior version customers debate whether they go back to the product.

Does a publisher maximize long term profits by rolling out upgrades each year at $130 a pop versus $150 to $200 for the new purchase price? I believe otherwise, I believe that upgrades should be discounted more than half the new cost of the new product when upgrades are frequent. And do most software publishers. Maybe they are all wrong.

Here is to hoping that AS remains a choice for us to consider for as long as possible, and that whatever software we ultimately use has a community as open and sharing as that which currently is supporting AS.

GCharb wrote:I which they had not gone so deep into 3D.

ASP is a 2D aniamtion package, well, it used to be, this is why I bought it in the first place, now it is an Hybrid 2d/3d package.

The problem is, none of the 3D tools are at pro level,

Many years ago, in school, I used a program called Tales Animator with pupils in my class. It was an utterly different style of animation aimed at young children. It was for strictly 2D animation but then the developer tried to incorporate 3D and the whole project lost its way and became lost for just the reasons you mention.

I'm not saying this will happen to Anime Studio - I'm sure it won't - but to move effectively into the realms of 3D animation will surely eventually utterly change the entire structure and nature of the program?

How sure are the developers that users really want a hybrid which might end up not doing either type of animation as well as those that are fully dedicated to just 2D or just 3D?

Just quickly back to Vern's post

The core format of this experimental application was XML. All of the work I did it on it so far to convert the AS file format to XML

That's really cool, of course you know why, it really could bust down some walls in regard to some compatibility/ exchange issues, I like your thinking.


also..

I still don't see the problem.

It's called money, JGI .