I know this question has been asked before, and I have researched the forum's archives, but I couldn't find much info regarding people's recommendations for the "best" video editing/dvd authoring software for animation on Windows systems.
Again I use Anime Pro on Windows Vista. My anime files average between 40 secs and 2 minutes long.
I currently export out of Anime using the mov option (Sorenson 3 compression - medium quality). Average file size 5-32 meg.
I find that the quality (for the small size) is good enough for what I am producing.
Problem is I cannot find a decent video/dvd authoring software for Windows Vista that will import mov files and export a decent quality mov file and also author a decent looking dvd.
I have tested VideoWave (too buggy, crashes continually does not work on Vista) -- Sony Vegas (couldn't get it to load) -- Corel (crappy software) -- PowerDirector (decent enough but can't buy it because of weird issues with the software being sold overseas and my credit card -- believe me you don't want to know.)
I could use the crappy "Windows Movie Maker" but it doesn't import mov files (who would have thought?) and I can't export my files as uncompressed avis out of Anime as the file sizes are too large (over 4 gig for 2 minutes) -- plus many times the avi option doesn't export correctly (missing the audio for example).
I suppose I could use an avi compression codec, but the ones that came with Windows are useless, and I tried downloading others, but for some reason Vista doesn't like them (again go figure).
Anyway, the mov option out of Anime works fine for me, I just need to find a decent video editing/dvd authoring software out there that runs on Windows Vista and supports movs.
Any suggestions?
(BTW, I noticed Quicktime 7 plays the mov files I export out of Anime really choppy. Odd. Media Player Classic plays them fine, and they play fine when I upload them to YouTube or GoogleVideo. Any else have the same problem?)
Thanks
"Best" video editing/dvd authoring software for an
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areyouguystwins
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:02 pm
- Location: New York
Your first error is using compression when exporting from AS. To get the best results from ANY video editor you should start with NO compression or at a minimum the SAME compression that will be the final video.
Here's the problem, you are exporting using Sorenson 3 (which is kind of icky looking to begin with). Then you import into something else and export AGAIN probably using another compression codec. This is just like making a photocopy of a photocopy.
The other problem you mentioned was file size using "uncompressed"... sorry but you will have to deal with this at some point. Uncompressed is the best way to go if you are using a video editor. Those files are huge... there is no way around it. Compression degrades quality. If you compress to save space you sacrifice the quality of the final video. DV video for DVD export is pretty big. The files will be huge.
As far as editors go you could go the "cheap" route and get QT pro (about $40). Sounds odd but you can use this as a "poor man's" video editor. It doesn't have many editing features but it keeps the audio from AS exports, it allows basic trimming of clips and you can copy/paste clips onto other clips. Plus you can export to nearly every format under the sun... including DV export for use with DVD burning.
I've used QT Pro in a pinch when I'm in a hurry. You can even "replace" or paste in audio tracks. I often delete the sound track from AS before rendering and then paste it back in using QT Pro from a higher quality audio file.
If you have the cash for something better look at the import/export features. Make sure it has the option for importing/exporting the format you want to use. You could go with Adobe Premier (do they still make that?).
-vern
Here's the problem, you are exporting using Sorenson 3 (which is kind of icky looking to begin with). Then you import into something else and export AGAIN probably using another compression codec. This is just like making a photocopy of a photocopy.
The other problem you mentioned was file size using "uncompressed"... sorry but you will have to deal with this at some point. Uncompressed is the best way to go if you are using a video editor. Those files are huge... there is no way around it. Compression degrades quality. If you compress to save space you sacrifice the quality of the final video. DV video for DVD export is pretty big. The files will be huge.
As far as editors go you could go the "cheap" route and get QT pro (about $40). Sounds odd but you can use this as a "poor man's" video editor. It doesn't have many editing features but it keeps the audio from AS exports, it allows basic trimming of clips and you can copy/paste clips onto other clips. Plus you can export to nearly every format under the sun... including DV export for use with DVD burning.
I've used QT Pro in a pinch when I'm in a hurry. You can even "replace" or paste in audio tracks. I often delete the sound track from AS before rendering and then paste it back in using QT Pro from a higher quality audio file.
If you have the cash for something better look at the import/export features. Make sure it has the option for importing/exporting the format you want to use. You could go with Adobe Premier (do they still make that?).
-vern
I use a program call MAGIX movie edit pro 10
Only 16 tracks, you have to compress your video. Some lossless compressions do work. Has DVD authoring built in.
Cost me 100 bucks 10 doesn't work with vista.
http://www.magix.com/us/movie-edit-pro/detail/
Dale
Only 16 tracks, you have to compress your video. Some lossless compressions do work. Has DVD authoring built in.
Cost me 100 bucks 10 doesn't work with vista.
http://www.magix.com/us/movie-edit-pro/detail/
Dale
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areyouguystwins
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:02 pm
- Location: New York
At this point in time, for the project I am working on, I am going to need to use some sort of compression out of Anime.heyvern wrote:Your first error is using compression when exporting from AS. To get the best results from ANY video editor you should start with NO compression or at a minimum the SAME compression that will be the final video.
I did a test last night.
I exported a 2:14 min long animation out of Anime using the avi uncompressed option (that is the longest animation file we will have). It took 2 hours to export and was over 4.2 gig. Of course Vista was not too happy with the file size and the avi was pretty much toast when I tried to view it.
Supposedly Vista (NTFS) allows file sizes to be larger than 4 gig, but I couldn't seem to get that to work on my test file, it stopped at 4.2 and overwrote the beginning of the file -- really weird.
I guess I could fight some more with Vista to allow larger file sizes than 4 gig, but it is just too much of a hassle. I'm tired of fighting with Vista.
Anyway, I noticed if I export an uncompressed avi out of Anime and it is over 2 gig but under 4 gig, I still need to use VirtualDub to "fix" the file (the whole type 1 -- type 2 thing) so it can be viewed in Windows Media Player and imported into video editing programs.
So yeah, uncompressed files are the way to go if you are working on small snippets of animation out of Anime, say 3-10 seconds -- but for anything over one minute, using compression is more manageable for me.
Strange as it may seem, I actually like the quality of the Sorenson 3 compression. Today I exported a 1 minute file using the H.264 compression and I didn't like the colors. Yeah, H.264 may be more "crisper" and not as "muddy" as Sorenson -- but again -- for the project I am working on Sorenson seems to work fine for me.Here's the problem, you are exporting using Sorenson 3 (which is kind of icky looking to begin with).
In fact I burned 24 scenes (about 22 minutes -- 24 mov files using Sorenson 3 compression) to a DVD (when I was testing PowerDirector) and I thought the quality was actually pretty decent. I watched the dvd on an HDTV and I was surprised at how good it looked considering the multiple compressions I used to generate the dvd.
For our current project using compressed files out of Anime is the best option. I do not plan on displaying the animated film on the big screen, nor is it a "professional" project. It is just a 70 minute animated film that I will burn to a dvd to watch on normal TVs and upload to GoogleVideo/Youtube.The other problem you mentioned was file size using "uncompressed"... sorry but you will have to deal with this at some point.
I was thinking about using QT Pro. $29.99 for the Windows version. I have no clue if it works well on Vista, I guess I will find out if I go that route.As far as editors go you could go the "cheap" route and get QT pro (about $40). Sounds odd but you can use this as a "poor man's" video editor. It doesn't have many editing features but it keeps the audio from AS exports, it allows basic trimming of clips and you can copy/paste clips onto other clips. Plus you can export to nearly every format under the sun... including DV export for use with DVD burning.
We really don't need a "kick ass" video editing program, as we do most of our shots/effects in Anime. We just need a program that will allow us to piece together the individual mov files we generated out of Anime. We really don't even need any "cool" transitions (see QT doesn't have any) -- just the ability to add title cards in between the movs (if QT doesn't do that we can make individual title cards in Anime as mov files).
We will leave the soundtrack on the original movs (lip synch issue) but would like to be able to add music over the entire movie (second sound track) if possible. Does QT Pro do that?I've used QT Pro in a pinch when I'm in a hurry. You can even "replace" or paste in audio tracks. I often delete the sound track from AS before rendering and then paste it back in using QT Pro from a higher quality audio file.
I understand if I use QT Pro as my "down and dirty" video editor, I will need to export as a mpg the final movie and then burn to a DVD using another program. Yup, one more compression but that is the way it goes.
BTW, figured out the Quicktime player doesn't really like Sorenson 3 compression, that is why it looks choppy on my computer. Using H.264 works fine viewing my mov files in Quicktime. I may need to resort to that compression if I choose the QT Pro editing option, even though I don't like the colors compared to Sorenson and the H.264 files are larger.
Well it sounds like you got everything covered although I can't imagine how in the heck Sorensen 3 looks better than H.264... I just don't understand that one.
If you have problems with files over 4 gigs just break that one long AS file into two or more files. Also it just seems to me that using any type of video editor to produce a 70 minute DVD is going to produce pretty big files.
Anyway good luck with the project.
-vern
If you have problems with files over 4 gigs just break that one long AS file into two or more files. Also it just seems to me that using any type of video editor to produce a 70 minute DVD is going to produce pretty big files.
Anyway good luck with the project.
-vern
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areyouguystwins
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:02 pm
- Location: New York
Update:
I did more research on video editors for Vista that use movs, as usual I came across dead ends.
Then I read up on ArcSoft VideoImpressions 2.0. It is not one of the big players in the video editing field. But I remembered I have a copy of VideoImpressions that came with my web cam that currently doesn't work on Vista (no driver for Vista 64, big surprise).
So I installed ArcSoft VideoImpressions 2.0 -- I assumed it wouldn't work on Vista or wouldn't import movs. I was wrong on both accounts (at least from testing it initally). It imported my mov files from Anime and they played perfectly in the preview window. There are very little editing options and export options available in this software -- however there is an export option for "dv avi."
I then imported one mov file (1:02 minutes long with audio 720 x 540) chose the dv avi option and exported it. The original mov file size is 14 meg -- after I exported it the dv avi file size is 220 meg.
After viewing the dv avi file, I see no degredation in quality from the original mov file. Obviously because there was no further compression. OK, the dv avi files are much bigger than the mov files, but still they are more manageable than uncompressed avis straight out of Anime.
Looks like I can convert all my mov files to dv avi files and then import those files into Windows Movie Maker and use that program as my "down and dirty" video editing and DVD burning program. I will have close to 13 gigs worth of individual dv avi files that I will be compiling and editing in Windows Movie Maker (hope it can handle that much, I guess I will find out) in order to make my 70 minute animated movie.
Seems I have found some sort of work around with no extra money out of my pocket (at least for now -- that's always good!)
I did a quick test in WMM importing the 1 minute dv avi file and it seemed to import OK and when I exported as a 720 x 540 DVD quality wmv file, the quality was decent enough for my purposes. I will still need to test the DVD burning and see what quality I get there.
Anyway, back to animating...
I did more research on video editors for Vista that use movs, as usual I came across dead ends.
Then I read up on ArcSoft VideoImpressions 2.0. It is not one of the big players in the video editing field. But I remembered I have a copy of VideoImpressions that came with my web cam that currently doesn't work on Vista (no driver for Vista 64, big surprise).
So I installed ArcSoft VideoImpressions 2.0 -- I assumed it wouldn't work on Vista or wouldn't import movs. I was wrong on both accounts (at least from testing it initally). It imported my mov files from Anime and they played perfectly in the preview window. There are very little editing options and export options available in this software -- however there is an export option for "dv avi."
I then imported one mov file (1:02 minutes long with audio 720 x 540) chose the dv avi option and exported it. The original mov file size is 14 meg -- after I exported it the dv avi file size is 220 meg.
After viewing the dv avi file, I see no degredation in quality from the original mov file. Obviously because there was no further compression. OK, the dv avi files are much bigger than the mov files, but still they are more manageable than uncompressed avis straight out of Anime.
Looks like I can convert all my mov files to dv avi files and then import those files into Windows Movie Maker and use that program as my "down and dirty" video editing and DVD burning program. I will have close to 13 gigs worth of individual dv avi files that I will be compiling and editing in Windows Movie Maker (hope it can handle that much, I guess I will find out) in order to make my 70 minute animated movie.
Seems I have found some sort of work around with no extra money out of my pocket (at least for now -- that's always good!)
I did a quick test in WMM importing the 1 minute dv avi file and it seemed to import OK and when I exported as a 720 x 540 DVD quality wmv file, the quality was decent enough for my purposes. I will still need to test the DVD burning and see what quality I get there.
Anyway, back to animating...
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marcotronic
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:42 am
- Location: Germany
Hi,
if you are looking for a professional solution:
Sony Vegas 8 Pro - Video/Soundediting & DVD authoring
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/pro ... sp?pid=457
simply the best...
Marco
if you are looking for a professional solution:
Sony Vegas 8 Pro - Video/Soundediting & DVD authoring
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/pro ... sp?pid=457
simply the best...
Marco
Does the authoring recognizes the DVD burners? Ten works fine right up to burning DVD's, where the program can't find the two burners. That's the problem that I have and I'm blaming vista not having the dll's the program it needs. I have tried up dates, still doesn't work.Quote:
Sorry. MAGIX movie edit pro 10 doesn't work in Vista, along with Activision's The movies, Carrara 5 and my list keeps growing.
If you find a video editor thats works with crappy vista, let me know.
Magix Movie Edit Pro 11 (Plus) works very well with Vista apparently.
Magix is one the best cheap editors, but I really don't like the idea that I have to buy the same software very time Microsoft up dates windows.
Dale
May sound kind of dumb thing to ask but why are you using vista - the general consensus is Vista and (especially) HD video simply do not mix - Micro$oft have a downgrade switch in the OS which detects non-DMS work and degrades it automatically.
It is one of the reason Vista is being looked at by the EU fair trade commission - if they are found to be in breach of the current regs, Microsoft can be fined and/or see Vista banned from sale and circulation in the Eurozone: There is no reason to believe anything other than MS will be found guilty since they have just lost the XP battle and Vista is 10 times worse on anti-competition, as in
The best comment has come from a New Zealand Professor of Computer Science - Vista is Microsoft's suicide note.
As for compress, animation with its large areas of flat colour are particularly susceptible to artifacts etc: Why not just output in png sequence and import into the editor as a new clip? File sizes are often the same and you only have one level of compression at the last stage.
Rhoel
It is one of the reason Vista is being looked at by the EU fair trade commission - if they are found to be in breach of the current regs, Microsoft can be fined and/or see Vista banned from sale and circulation in the Eurozone: There is no reason to believe anything other than MS will be found guilty since they have just lost the XP battle and Vista is 10 times worse on anti-competition, as in
QEDSony Vegas (couldn't get it to load).
The best comment has come from a New Zealand Professor of Computer Science - Vista is Microsoft's suicide note.
As for compress, animation with its large areas of flat colour are particularly susceptible to artifacts etc: Why not just output in png sequence and import into the editor as a new clip? File sizes are often the same and you only have one level of compression at the last stage.
Rhoel
Rhoel, that New Zealand guy has largely been discredited now.
Also the downgrading switch is only if the content creator decides to use it, it's not Microsoft's decision. They only implemented it in order to comply with full specifications. It's unlikely that content creators will risk turning it on because of the bad press they will receive.
As for the Vista vs EU fair trade commission, you're either misinformed or spinning it to spread FUD.
The main problems with Vista are the lack of drivers for legacy hardware, which is only really a problem if you're upgrading your machine. If you're buying a new machine that's designed to work with Vista, you'll pretty much be okay.
But just so this doesn't turn into a flame war, people should do their own research on Vista, and not listen to just me or Rhoel or that New Zealand guy.
(Nothing personal, Rhoel, it's just your consensus of opinion doesn't quite match with mine...
)
Also the downgrading switch is only if the content creator decides to use it, it's not Microsoft's decision. They only implemented it in order to comply with full specifications. It's unlikely that content creators will risk turning it on because of the bad press they will receive.
As for the Vista vs EU fair trade commission, you're either misinformed or spinning it to spread FUD.
The main problems with Vista are the lack of drivers for legacy hardware, which is only really a problem if you're upgrading your machine. If you're buying a new machine that's designed to work with Vista, you'll pretty much be okay.
But just so this doesn't turn into a flame war, people should do their own research on Vista, and not listen to just me or Rhoel or that New Zealand guy.
(Nothing personal, Rhoel, it's just your consensus of opinion doesn't quite match with mine...
)areyouguystwins
I'm primarily a video editor, animation is secondary for me. I find some of your comments not fully understandable.
First, .mov is a Quicktime extension that describes the QT file "wrapper". Within that can be many different codecs, including uncompressed, h.264, the Animation codec, the DV codec, etc. .AVI is the extension for Windows based media, (not to be confused with .wmv files), that can also include uncompressed, DV and other codecs, much like Quicktime.
All this means is that you can often find similar codecs that are native in either Windows (.avi) based or Mac (.mov). By using a codec with a .mov-QT wrapper on a PC you limit your choice of editing programs.
The standard process, as alluded to above, is to do all your production/post-production in a format with little or no compression- between DV and uncompressed video. For two reasons-to keep up quality through the post process and do major compression only once. And also because, as you have found out, video editing programs don't like editing highly compressed files. I've been a pro editor and motion grfx guy for years. Your workflow is not what a pro would do-compressing via Sorenson before editing.
At the very end of the process, in this case after you edit, THEN you compress to Sorenson, .wmv, .flv or whatever.
BTW, you can try both Premiere Pro and its less expensive little brother, Premiere ?Elements? for free for 30 days via download from their site. Premiere Pro includes 'Adobe Media Encoder', a export utility that allows you to compress your final movie to a variety of different codecs, including both .avi and .mov versions. It also includes the ability to export the latest On2 Flash codec, which right now I believe is better than Sorenson, H.264 or .wmv for light file size, high quality web videos. Check it Out.
I'm primarily a video editor, animation is secondary for me. I find some of your comments not fully understandable.
First, .mov is a Quicktime extension that describes the QT file "wrapper". Within that can be many different codecs, including uncompressed, h.264, the Animation codec, the DV codec, etc. .AVI is the extension for Windows based media, (not to be confused with .wmv files), that can also include uncompressed, DV and other codecs, much like Quicktime.
All this means is that you can often find similar codecs that are native in either Windows (.avi) based or Mac (.mov). By using a codec with a .mov-QT wrapper on a PC you limit your choice of editing programs.
The standard process, as alluded to above, is to do all your production/post-production in a format with little or no compression- between DV and uncompressed video. For two reasons-to keep up quality through the post process and do major compression only once. And also because, as you have found out, video editing programs don't like editing highly compressed files. I've been a pro editor and motion grfx guy for years. Your workflow is not what a pro would do-compressing via Sorenson before editing.
At the very end of the process, in this case after you edit, THEN you compress to Sorenson, .wmv, .flv or whatever.
BTW, you can try both Premiere Pro and its less expensive little brother, Premiere ?Elements? for free for 30 days via download from their site. Premiere Pro includes 'Adobe Media Encoder', a export utility that allows you to compress your final movie to a variety of different codecs, including both .avi and .mov versions. It also includes the ability to export the latest On2 Flash codec, which right now I believe is better than Sorenson, H.264 or .wmv for light file size, high quality web videos. Check it Out.