All in one "head turn" mouth rig with one bone

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:18 pm

Well,

I think I want to keep this guy for myself. I could put this set up in another file when I get a chance so you can see the bone rig. I haven't added the head turn to this yet. I have a perfect head turn using point motion. I want to play with him a bit and see how close I can get that head turn just with bones.

Here is a screen grab... sort of. If I leave all the bones turned on it gets really messy and hard to see anythng.

Basically the setup is the same as my previous samples in this thread for the lips. The only difference is that there is an extra set on the left and right controlled by different bones.

The key to the whole thing is the compound bones. This is the kind of bone control I've always wanted in AS.

If any one tries anything like this on your own... NAME THE BONES! NAME THE BONES! Don't even TRY not naming the bones. You need a naming system or you get lost... totally lost.

On this rig I changed the naming so that everything is labeled "left" or "right" or "center". Sometimes I have to have 3 sets, left right and center, all sharing influence on the mesh and controlled by different bones. If I push out his cheeks with the main chin bone, and then add some left or right, I need those to add on to it. Same with the center of each lip.

p.s. Yes, yes, I named the bones from MY left and right, not the character. The smile bones are BACKWARDS. They rotate down to go up. I get lost all the time when I travel.

-vern

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:38 pm

First of all thanks for share like always.

I still need to work on how the teeth are controlled. I think I may put in separate controls for the teeth. Right now they tend to rise up or down too much. Have to play with it.

Remember that you can have some points binded to a bone and some others flexible binded to same bone. So if you have problems with teeth you can bind them to the central controlled bone of the whole lower lip and jaw bone so the can move as a "rigid solid" (as teeth are ... rigid) with the lower lip-jaw.

One question: did you experienced that the controller bones have to be moved more than in previous setups? I mean, now there is a 33/33/33 controlled bone system (3 bones control same point at same time) so if before you have to move the controller bone 2x, now you have to move it like 3x... isn't it?

Other qustion: You have said that now there are a new set of bones for symetrical and not symetrical movements. It is clear that control values are the apropiates to do each thing, but every group of bones lies OVER the other? Did you play with the strength of the bone or every set of bones have exactly the same strength?
I ask this because the copy bone and paste bone script taken from the forum is very useful for that kind of use. Once you rig the points properly (bone position and strength) you can duplicate them easysly AT SAME POSITION then only modifying the controlled values they do differnt things. I think it could be very usefl for you and save a lot of time.

Gnaws · Post by **Gnaws** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:14 pm

Sweet baby Jeezuz in a CAR SEAT, Vern!! That is flippin' AWESOME!!

PS: I understand if you don't want to post the moho file, but it would be a beautiful gift.

If you would do this, I would trade in my sweaty, week old "I <heart> Rasheed" t-shirt for a "I <heart> VERN" THONG.

huh? HUH?!?

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:38 pm

EDIT:
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I forgot to mention. I used a bunch of bone offset. For instance the mouth is way below the face so the bones don't intermingle. But on the shadow area below the nose, I dragged just those points to line up with upper lip bones. Then when the mouth bones are offset the shadow under the nose follows the lip. I also offset the teeth. They are controlled by just "one" bone set that is shared with the four mouth controls.
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The trouble with the teeth is which bone should have more control. If I had separate teeth controls I can fine tune their position. Like for clenched teeth, or a big toothy smile. I need to tweak so each "pose" looks good. Sometimes they look fine in one position then the teeth disappear behind the lips in another.
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I usually leave the bone constraints at the same value when they are doubled or even tripled. However, sometimes I need to tweak the constraints if one bone needs more or less. It is trial and error by seeing the results in the time line.

I have discovered that bone influence can be a useful way to tweak the movement. If I make the influence slightly larger on one "compound" bone it has a small influence on other points, that helps the motion. Haven't played around much with that trick. Accidentally came across it.

Now that you mention it I probably could increase the values on the constraints. Then I wouldn't have to drag the bones so far when animating!!!

I paste or create bones exactly on top of each other and match length position and strength. That is why it is so critical to name the bones specifically. Otherwise there is no way to select bones under other bones.

I am using a copy/paste bone script from... someone... I forget who created it. It saves a TON of time. However, the one I use doesn't copy bone constraints. Is there a new one that copies bone constraints? This would save a lot of time for me. I have trouble with bone parents sometimes. the script window doesn't scroll and there are so many bones, I can't check or uncheck the options at the bottom.

I think I can pull off the head turn on this new guy. The trickiest part is the ear. It is "squished" from the front view... so... I will need to do some tricky bone binding/constraining to pull it out for the 3/4 view. I have a perfect "hand drawn" turn already done using point motion. I use this for a guide.

The cool part about this is that once done I can animate it like crazy. And as I go along these rigs can be adapted to new characters without starting completely from scratch.

-vern

J. Baker · Post by **J. Baker** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:55 pm

Are you binding the bones to points? And if the teeth are on their own layer, you shouldn't have this problem.

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:09 pm

I am using a copy/paste bone script from... someone... I forget who created it. It saves a TON of time. However, the one I use doesn't copy bone constraints. Is there a new one that copies bone constraints? This would save a lot of time for me. I have trouble with bone parents sometimes. the script window doesn't scroll and there are so many bones, I can't check or uncheck the options at the bottom.

I think this is the thread.

And I agree with you. If the window could scroll... mmm I have had same problem. There are SO many bones.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:24 pm

J. Baker wrote:Are you binding the bones to points? And if the teeth are on their own layer, you shouldn't have this problem.

There is no "problem". Everything is working as it should. It is just a matter of deciding how to do it. Do I try to "automate" it or do I add in more controls?

I think I want more control.

-vern

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:12 pm

Gnaws wrote:Sweet baby Jeezuz in a CAR SEAT...

I wouldn't put him in a car seat. Did you hear about those reports on car seats?

I promise to do an "alternate version" of this for you guys when I get a chance. This character is the lead in a short I want to finish someday. I have to do several other characters in the same style so I can let one of the "extras" out to the users.

-vern

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:56 am

Woohooo!

I almost got it! It's not perfect but it is so close I can taste it.

I have a complete head turn, up down, left right independent of the mouth controls. Needs tweaking in a few places but it works. I need to do something about perspective on the mouth. Currently the mouth just moves left and right, no perspective. I need to tweak the bones. (I lost some controls on the eyes when I added bones for the head turn but that can be fixed)

http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/ISA_ ... _bones.mov

-vern

Post by **Víctor Paredes** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:51 am

Touched · Post by **Touched** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:58 am

This gets better and better!

bupaje · Post by **bupaje** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:01 am

Cool work. I may have mentioned it before, but if not, then this control bones thing makes me thing Mike/e-frontier should look at making a Poser-like plugin so that characters rigged in a certain way would have a properties panel allowing control through dials/sliders. I know, I know, animtion should be painful but don't brush it off, pro's could rig their characters and speed up certain animation tasks and it might open AS up to Graphic artists who want to create 2D still images after posing, amateurs can create 'poser art' and third-party designers can pump out all types of assests the way Daz does with Poser.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:06 am

Cool idea Bupaje,

One of my goals by doing this stuff is to show the incredible potential of more and better bone constraints to efrontier.

With just a few enhancements this type of thing could be done with a fraction of the bones and be a lot easier to set up. In the meantime I am having a blast.

I think the reason I like constraints is the same reason I love Rube Goldberg type devices (I got a huge 128 piece marble roller kit with battery operated conveyor belt feed this year. It works with the other two 128 piece kits I bought last year. 42 years old and I still get toys for christmas. I will always be a child at heart. Okay okay, the nephews played with it too but it's still mine.)

-vern

rplate · Post by **rplate** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:23 am

heyvern wrote: One of my goals by doing this stuff is to show the incredible potential of more and better bone constraints to efrontier.
With just a few enhancements this type of thing could be done with a fraction of the bones and be a lot easier to set up. In the meantime I am having a blast.
-vern

Okay,Okay
You aren't supposed to have all the FUN!

Let me have some to. I saw what you were doing with the bones and thought, 'I bet I can do that just as easily with vector pont animation as well'. So, I spent MY time hi-lighting groups of vector points and distorting them with the draw tools, just as you distort with bones. Andso, like you, I already had a head drawn and using all the different draw tools such as: lasso, scale, perspective, etc.

Because Ive grouped all the facial parts I am able to quickly make the mouth shapes, or blink the eyes. Oh, what fun!

I really appreciate the challenges and help you give on this forum.

click here to see the FUN I'm having.

It's a flash file. I put the original head beside the morphing head to show how you could morph the original into as many character as you have imagination to create. Just push those vector points around like play dough and see what comes out.
Feel free to comment, I need all the help I can get. This is not a finished prodution piece, just experimenting. Don't be too harsh.

Touched · Post by **Touched** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:43 am

Yes, but by keeping as much as possible in the bones, it makes for a much tidier timeline. If you use bones *and* point motion, the keys are scattered all over the place and making timing adjustments can be tedious depending on the complexity of the rig. You don't have to go hunting on all the different layers to move point motion key frames with Vern's method.