My wish for Moho in 2024 – Concentrate on Timeline/Workflow improvements

[JoelMayer]

So the year's coming to an end and i took the time to really push my Moho skills and finally try to make a piece that adheres more to Frame by Frame sensibilities and hopefully looks more like it.

viewtopic.php?t=36695

Moho 14 did great, i think i got a pretty good result for it being my first try working this way which is kind of the workflow i learned from a lot of TV animators using other software. However, as someone who's been using the software on and off for over 10 years now, i also realized there are simply some workflow issues that i hope and wish get resolved in 2024.

It's really nothing "major" i hope but my top pressing feature request now is really just a consolidated timeline channel that includes EVERTHING. Every last little channel being animated on a selected layer and it's children basically. All vector points, all color changes, all layer transforms... not just the bones. Yes, before you link me to the many great scripts, i know we have solutions like the AE KeyTool that can show us all the animated channels but the only thing that really drives me mad in Moho is the endless shoveling through layers to get to a certain channel i want and then having a 2 meter long timeline where i have to somehow keep track of what is where. Plus since i like to do a lot of point-level animation AND use 2's as my standard interpolation it can get convoluted very very fast (which layer has what interpolation now, did i really change this, retiming things becomes a drag, etc. etc.)

I was hoping the new shove keys left and right button in the timeline would really push everything but it seems to only do bone layers as well.

Grease Pencil has something called the Timeline Summary and Toon Boom grabs everything as soon as i collapse the layers in its timeline. So there's plenty of precedence. I know maybe for some this seem to be a non-issue especially since we've worked this way for so long but i can honestly say that it would probably speed me up up to 2 times if i didn't have to drag and grab at least three keys (transform, rotation, scale) everytime. Which is another thing: it would be nice if all the things could just be collapsed to one keyframe by default because let's be honest: how often do we really need three different keys for those three properties? Not a lot in my experience. Yet we have to drag across three keys for every bone channel each time we want to move something. It would be better imo if they were consolidated into one as a standard and i could then expand them at will (similiar to how seperating dimensions works but just on one level above it). I think us old-timers just did things this way for so long that we never really questioned it. Maybe it's my Interaction Design major from art school speaking...

But yea a consolidated Timeline, where i can spend most of my time looking at just ONE set of keys, swiftly drag stuff around to retime, set interpolations and 1's,2's'3's, without worrying if i got everything would improve the experience of animating in Moho 10 fold.

In that same spirit, it would also be good if the timeline had a native button that so many scripts already offer that show you all the channels with keys on them on a mouse-click.

Another story is having access to Switch layers on the top bone layer, maybe through the Switch selection Window which has an additional selection for all the switches in a current layer structure. (i know, there's scripts).

WHY i think this is essential? Because as great as Smartbones are, i think the best and most sophisticated results you will always get when you're using a tool that was in Moho from the beginning: animating points over time. It's the best thing in Moho and yet the most infuriating thing to work with sometimes because you'll find yourself ending up with a enourmous timeline, a lot of things getting overlooked, and just generally not a nice experience. If i just had to go this deep when fiddling with details but could spend the rest of the time in one overview, it would be soooooo much better!

Anyway, i hope the Moho team considers this, this would improve the software so much methinks.

Happy Holidays and thank you for an awesome tool and a great release in 2023

[slowtiger]

I'm definitely on your side here. I don't really need new functions, but there are some UI hassles which bother me for years now. Some of them:
(note: this is still 13.5 since I haven't used 14 yet - never change versions while in the midst of a project!)
- When I zoom in on the timeline the keys become unmanageable. It's hit-and-miss all the time to select one, and even if it's selected it rarely means I can move it.
- While it's possible to have the layer settings panel open and step through the layers (don't forget to hit apply each time!), I miss the choice to easily apply the same settings (set of settings, even) to all selected layers. This is a general UI thing, it also applies to "all selected keys" and "all selected shapes".
- Moving portions of complex (more than one channel and layer) timelines. 'nuff said.
- No numeric feedback (or even input, *gasp*) while shifting layers in sequencer view. Would even be nice when just shifting keys around.

The timeline hasn't changed significantly in more than 10 years, and I think it shows. I have seen some clever UI ideas elsewhere, the most appealing ones are dynamic views depending on cursor position or selection. Imagine this:
- a timeline showing every channel and every key (just like you asked for), but each channel only 2 px high, keys color-coded according to funtion. Only when you hover about a line it enlarges and gets active (the neighbouring lines get enlarged as well proportionally), but selections remain even in collapsed view. (I implemented this more than 15 yrs ago already in some dummy interface in Flash, so I know it's possible.)

Then there's something I dreamed of last night (honestly!): i work a lot with fades. So far I have to set a start and end opacity either in layer settings or using the fade script, both not very elegant. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to select a range of (empty) frames in the timeline and just click a button for fade in (and another for fade out)?

Enough of those unsorted musings. More coffee! And to state just the obvious: without Moho I wouldn't be even half as productive.

[JoelMayer]

Agree with you. Imo opinion the features are there, it's just fine-tuning them but there's always a danger with older software (and Moho has its years) that it just becomes a cycle of piling features and scripts on top of each other without revising the underlying UX. That's really all i want for now. Sure probably the liquid shapes, freehand etc. can use some work but the Timeline is where i spend most of my... time (heh), so it really needs some love now.

[Greenlaw]

I would love to see continued focus on improving features we already have in Moho.

For example, after the release of Moho 14,1 I started using Freehand, Blob Brush and FBF on TV productions at my workplace, something I wouldn't have considered back in 12.5 or even 13.5 days. The fixes and enhancements made to these features are significant and welcome, but they can still be better.

Some of my wishes for 2024 are simple. For example, adding a couple of r-click commands to the Layers Window for Copy Layer and Paste Layer, and Convert FBF To Switch (Yes, I know I can do each of these by selecting the Edit menu commands, and by opening the Layer Settings window, navigating to Switch and unchecking Frame By Frame, but it would be easier and preferable to select them from an R-click menu in the place where I need it.)

One feature got broken in 14.1: the display preview for the Patch Layer. I'm almost sure this one was working in 14.0 so I hope a fix is around the corner. The broken preview is really distracting. (It works fine in 13.5 but I know we had a different display system then,)

One idea I'd like to see revived from 13.0 is grouping in the Actions window. This feature did not work reliably in 13.0, but the idea was sound! It's not uncommon for me to have 100 or more Actions for a character, and being able to organize them in groups would be super helpful. I'd like to see the same idea applied to the Styles window too!

I'd also like to see a Bones window added, where we can create bone sets (or bone groups) and select the bones by these sets. This would be a new feature, but the idea is an extension of some features we have now in Moho.

I still want keyframeable visibility for Bones. Vitruvian Bones addressed some of my needs for this request, but not all of them.

I would still like to be able to keyframe the active state of Independent Angle, too.

Anyway, none of my requests are meant to diminish the amazing accomplishments of Moho in 2023. I just want to see a continuation of making the cool tools and features we have now even better!

Thanks for all your hard work, guys, and my best wishes for Moho in 2024!

[JoelMayer]

I would love to see continued focus on improving features we already have in Moho.

For example, after the release of Moho 14,1 I started using Freehand, Blob Brush and FBF on TV productions at my workplace, something I wouldn't have considered back in 12.5 or even 13.5 days. The fixes and enhancements made to these features are significant and welcome, but they can still be better.

Some of my wishes for 2024 are simple. For example, adding a couple of r-click commands to the Layers Window for Copy Layer and Paste Layer, and Convert FBF To Switch (Yes, I know I can do each of these by selecting the Edit menu commands, and by opening the Layer Settings window, navigating to Switch and unchecking Frame By Frame, but it would be easier and preferable to select them from an R-click menu in the place where I need it.)

One feature got broken in 14.1: the display preview for the Patch Layer. I'm almost sure this one was working in 14.0 so I hope a fix is around the corner. The broken preview is really distracting. (It works fine in 13.5 but I know we had a different display system then,)

One idea I'd like to see revived from 13.0 is grouping in the Actions window. This feature did not work reliably in 13.0, but the idea was sound! It's not uncommon for me to have 100 or more Actions for a character, and being able to organize them in groups would be super helpful. I'd like to see the same idea applied to the Styles window too!

I'd also like to see a Bones window added, where we can create bone sets (or bone groups) and select the bones by these sets. This would be a new feature, but the idea is an extension of some features we have now in Moho.

I still want keyframeable visibility for Bones. Vitruvian Bones addressed some of my needs for this request, but not all of them.

I would still like to be able to keyframe the active state of Independent Angle, too.

Anyway, none of my requests are meant to diminish the amazing accomplishments of Moho in 2023. I just want to see a continuation of making the cool tools and features we have now even better!

Thanks for all your hard work, guys, and my best wishes for Moho in 2024!

Good suggestions here too Greenlaw! It surprises me for someone that uses Moho that much that you don't have any gripes with the timeline I need more people in the timeline team! haha

[Hoptoad]

I was hoping the new shove keys left and right button in the timeline would really push everything but it seems to only do bone layers as well.

Yes, that would be awesome. When I shove bone keys, I always worry about unseen keys on a vector layer.

In that same spirit, it would also be good if the timeline had a native button that so many scripts already offer that show you all the channels with keys on them on a mouse-click.

I like this idea.

... grab at least three keys (transform, rotation, scale) everytime. Which is another thing: it would be nice if all the things could just be collapsed to one keyframe by default because let's be honest: how often do we really need three different keys for those three properties?

I like the idea of copying 1 key to copy transform, rotation and scale, as I almost always copy the keys for all 3 aspects. Maybe a toggle button could be added to the timeline which would turn the feature on/off?

[JoelMayer]

I was hoping the new shove keys left and right button in the timeline would really push everything but it seems to only do bone layers as well.

Yes, that would be awesome. When I shove bone keys, I always worry about unseen keys on a vector layer.

In that same spirit, it would also be good if the timeline had a native button that so many scripts already offer that show you all the channels with keys on them on a mouse-click.

I like this idea.

... grab at least three keys (transform, rotation, scale) everytime. Which is another thing: it would be nice if all the things could just be collapsed to one keyframe by default because let's be honest: how often do we really need three different keys for those three properties?

I like the idea of copying 1 key to copy transform, rotation and scale, as I almost always copy the keys for all 3 aspects. Maybe a toggle button could be added to the timeline which would turn the feature on/off?

This is basically what i want:



(Just a pretty and well thought out version of it of course, i slapped this together within 5 minutes )

[Greenlaw]

It surprises me for someone that uses Moho that much that you don't have any gripes with the timeline I need more people in the timeline team! haha

Ha ha! I'm mostly satisfied with the Timeline. I like the improvements made in Moho 14.1 for manipulating keyframes for the timeline, and the big square handles in general are much easier to work with than what we had before. That said, of course, Timeline could stand to get use more improvements. There are just a few other things I need more.

Somewhat related: Today, I figured out new (to me) techniques for editing and manipulating keyframes for FBF in Moho 14.1 that I couldn't do easily in 13.5 and earlier, so very excited about that. Just in general, FBF and freehand drawing in Moho 14.1 are so much nicer and they're actually useful now. This doesn't replace using a dedicated FBF program when I really need it, but it does mean spending less time working across two different animation packages for quick and simple FBF animations for Moho (at work, that's mainly Adobe Animate and Moho, and sometimes Harmony and Moho.)

[Hoptoad]

This is basically what i want:

Ooo, that looks legit. You just deep-faked Moho 15.

[JoelMayer]

Also something like this would be so great...

[Greenlaw]

Oh, yes! That would be fantastic!

Not having an easy way to select a Swtich layer has been a pet peev of mine for many years. The only native option is to Alt+Shift click a layer to select its parent group, but that only works if the Switch only contains standalone layers and not groups (and in my case, every layer in a Switch is a group.)

For a while, I was using Synthsin75's Layer Shortcuts. This works great, except the setup isn't importable without breaking. There's also Stan's Layer Selector, but its setups aren't importable either--it has to be re-configured after import.

More recently, I've been using LK_Layer Finder to select my Switch Layers.

viewtopic.php?p=213797#p213797

So far, this works well, but I need to test it further to be sure.

But yes, I'd like to see a native implementation for Switch Layer selection, and your concept looks very practical.

[JoelMayer]

Thanks Greenlaw. The LK Layer Finder thing looks indeed nice. I'm a minimalist when it comes to scripts but i think i'll install this one.

Speaking of UI, i think a good benchmark nowadays are the HTML5 type animation apps popping up atm. Rive is basically Moho for the web... that mini-graph that you can adjust for keys makes me drool.



Also note how few tools there are... imo you could consolidate the whole create shape, select shape, etc. into the select points tool. Trips up the newbs every time anyway.

Whenever the inevitable UI overhaul comes, it'd be good to look at these kind of apps that were built in the last five years. Also stuff like Figma and other prototyping software.

And please get rid of the MacOS 7 blinking dropdowns in the layer menu... i'll die on that hill



(i'm not advocating for Rive as an alternative to Moho, they have completely different usecases, but i think one can learn from its more modern UX/UI concepts)



One can dream hehe.. .

[mmmaarten]

I need more people in the timeline team! haha

Not to worry. I'm sending a lot of bug reports and feature requests on the timeline recently, because it could use quite some improvement. The UI in general honestly. But I send them directly to Lost Marble via support.

I hope more people talk about it to Lost marble or here or on discord, because it could need quite some improvements and fixes in the UI. A lot in the timeline too as this is arguably one of the most important things in animation software. With a big #1 and #2 for me: make the timeline stepless zoomable with mouse wheel and make the keyframes actually clickable and selectable, not only in the most zoomed in state!!! 1 or 2 pixels click region for a keyframe is basically impossible to click on/select with marquee and even when exactly clicking on it it still often doesn't work (as seen in screenrecordings because I couldn't believe it). It happens a lot selections are gone because click areas on keyframes just don't work and make us loose selections. Which makes it basically impossible to use in most zoom states. Especially because even the strokes around the representation of keyframes weridly aren't even clickable. Also at the same time other keyframes (like the keyframes at frame 0) get selected when not wanting to select them, while not even clicking on them/marquee selecting them.

Ah, and please let the playhead be on the same spot on the screen when zooming in or out!! And make it stand out more so we can actually spot it! (Why are grid lines even better to see than the playhead?)

Show the framenumber above the playhead when scrolling, show the frame difference above the playhead when moving keyframes around etc. Things I really miss from Spine.

Also you talked about wanting to have the step feature move more. I understand what you're after, but in this regard I would add:
- when keyframes are selected only move those frames around
- never move (document) markers. markers for me indicate where beats start and when using a step feature the beat position doesn't change, only the keyframes animating on those beat

There's much more bumping into when using Moho all day. Like the multi copying of keyframes as in the other thread. Many things work completely different than other software with no benefits, only making things harder than necesary and prone to errors IMO.

Try editing on music and see that the waveform is gone everytime. Making it impossible to search the right position again, because the waveform is not shown.

Ty get an overview of the complete timeline when it's longer than a minute or so. Like a 5 minutes song I'm working on right now; impossible. We cannot zoom out fully. There's also no way to get an overview of the complete animation otherwise. Even the horizontal scrollbar below the timeline doesn't give any representation of where we are at the complete time, because the scrollbar and the scrollbar handle size constantly changes. Also completely different than other software, which all use best practises because they are, after years of software development, best practises for a reason.

There's more issues and weird implementations, but I already sent all of these. This just to say there are more people hoping things can get improved in the UI. Not only timeline, but also the layers panel (which we cannot even make higher!!), the styles panel (which I got used to a little, but is still just way too complex for nowadays standards and user interfaces), the difficult non-standard way the add points tool works (completely different compared to Illustrator, Affinity Designer, which all basically use the same ways which is muscle memory)... Moho's interface which gets extreeeeemly slow (talking about a marquee selection, cancelling a dialog etc. so things that needs to be instant always, independent on file size) when the file is building up, while no need to. Missing images when only renaming the .moho file, which makes no sense. 'Set image source' crashing moho if the image is gone (which is just the purpose for re-setting an image)... etc. etc.

Try hitting DEL inside a text box to change the value of a location... it's removing the character behind it and than moves the cursor to the end of the text... completely messing up the value entering, because this shouldn't move the cursor. Now the value is completely wrong and you only find out much later, because who things even a text box is not working as should?

Try entering a value of more than one digit in the opacity textbox of a shadow... impossible. When entering a single digit it leaves the textbox. As former 25+ years developer I often ask myself; How could this ever be published like this without anybody seeing this? Is nobody using this?

My wish for 2024 for Moho would be not keep on re-inventing the wheel and not making things completely different than market standards and UI best practices (some from the start of the earliest UI ever), not adding more effects and all for a while, but first really start taking the time and putting in the effort to make the workflows better and stable. Interface intuitive, efficient, simpler and better. The underlying system is great, but I often strongly ask myself how it's possible things are still not fixed after all these years of existance.

Like blender did when starting blender 2.8. They reworked the complete interface and workflow and from that day on they got so much more traction by the complete 3d world and really got taken seriously. Before, not so much.
I strongly hope Moho will do the same and not keep on building on top of existing issues and weird workflows. I'm hoping for a modernized, way more flexible and intuitive (scalable/movable panels, among others!!! etc.), interface and efficient and stable workflow.

I'm sorry I'm dutch. Blunt and honest

I also hope this because it's taking me way too much time to file requests and bug reports (today alone 3 hours!!).

This is in no way personal of course and no hate whatsoever to Lost Marble. I love Moho still and there is so much great potential and great features all around that I wouldn't know where else to find. So this is also from love. As I am planning to use Moho for years to come and am happy to keep buying updates. Also having a lot of fun creating animations with it.

Also I'm sure Lost Marble is working very hard, it's really appreciated and great how fast and contentially the people at Lost marble react at tickets and I'm also very positive now that 14 is out and after the bad times they had I believe in the previous period they now have more time picking things up like this. And with things like the great Curver feature it's also clear they really listen to people.

Best wishes everybody!

[JoelMayer]

Just occured to me that my very first Moho (AS 6) had the simplified timeline channels Ironic.

Also this would be nice. Obviously it doesn't make much sense atm with the vertical lines and looks terrible but in essence...

[mmmaarten]

Great suggestions. I like how Spine does this; there keyframes always have the same size on the screen (no matter what zoom you're in, which is stepless scalable btw) and are always rectangular. This makes them always easy clickable while not using much space. Also there's never confusion on what keyframe the playhead is on. The click area is expanded in vertical direction because the keyframes are higher than they are wide. Which is a pretty good decision I'd say, because like this many keyframes fit unto the screen horizontally while remaining lots of room to click them. And because Moho is using round keyframes there's redundant space around the circle which is not clickable (next to the stroke of the keyframe itself not being clickable)




[Edit] Also I really hope Moho could implement something like this (really miss this from Spine):
- Show current framenumber above the playhead, because that's where our focus is when moving the playhead
- Show delta frames (plus/minus) on how much we are moving the selected keyframes above the selection when moving it (because in Moho in most zoom scales it's just impossible to see how many frames we are moving and it most of the time needs to be exact which really is only possible in the most zoomed in state, which has the issue that it often cannot show everything we need to see. Plus we cannot move keyframes outside of the view, because Moho doesn't auto scroll