PSD file in Moho 14

[Yosemite Sam]

Hey guys!

So I've taken on a new client who already has characters designed in PSD files. They imported fine into Moho, but my question is what happens when I start renaming and rearranging these?

If no updates will be done in PS is it best for me just to bring everything in as PNGs to avoid any potential nightmares?

Thanks!

[Greenlaw]

Hi,

To keep track of layers, Moho looks at the names first, so if you've already imported the files, changing the layer names in Moho is probably not a great idea. All is not lost, though: If the layers are already imported, and Moho can't find the layers by name, it falls back on layer IDs. Where Moho has trouble with Layer IDs, is when you add/delete/and merge layers in the PSD program, because this adds, eliminates, or changes the layer IDs, invalidating the layers you have in Moho. (This is why it tracks names first.)

If you want different layer names in Moho, it's always best to rename the layers in the PSD program before you import the PSD, so the names will be matched when you import it to Moho. If you want to preserve the original layer names in the PSD, work with a copy of the file. (I always works a copy of the source material anyway, and keep the source file as my master backup.)

Hope this helps.

[TheMinahBird]

I'd suggest turning the layers to PNG files then rig them. Moho works WAAAAAAY better with PNGs than PSD layers!

You have to be very specific and delicate with PSD layers and there's no guarantee Moho will run as fast or smoothly once the project gets too complex.

[Greenlaw]

I agree with TheyMinahBird: With really complex characters with lots of layers, having separate PNG files can be easier and more reliable for Moho to find and update. Some PSD programs have a command for outputting all the visible layers to PNG and can overwrite the existing files. Moho can automatically update the imported PNG layers when it detects a change.

In Photoshop, I HIGHLY recommend installing the free Photoshop-Export-Layers-to-Files-Fast tool. This tool is far more capable than the native Photoshop export layers command and, yes, it's faster too.

In Krita, there is a built-in menu script that does this. It's not nearly as nice as the above tool for Photoshop, but it gets the job done.

That said, I've been using Moho's layered PSD import feature more routinely after Moho 13.5. Previously, I avoided layered PSD because it was too easy to break the setup, but with the improvements in 13.5 and 14, layered PSD works much better now. Layered PSD will also place and scale the artwork as intended automatically. In practice, I'm finding layered PSD work fine for environments (i.e., backgrounds with BG, MG, and FG layers) and characters with a normal number of layers.

With the PNG method, positioning and scaling the layers isn't automatic when you export with trimming enabled (which is recommended.) I have to save a reference image so I can manually match the scale and position the import layers. It's really not a big deal, though, and once I've completed the setup, Moho will remember the scale and positions as it updates any changes. I used this method for many years on many TV shows.

I may still use separate PNG files when I have a ton of layers to import, and I wish to avoid containing them all in a single file which can increase the chance of broken links and corrupted data. Better safe than sorry.

Something else to consider: it's been reported that very large and complex layered PSD files can slow down Moho's performance. I haven't run into this because my PSD imports are not that complicated. I would experiment with the format and see if it works well for you. If not, consider exporting the layers as individual PNG files. (Note that the rules for layer names still apply.)

[mmmaarten]

Hey guys!

So I've taken on a new client who already has characters designed in PSD files. They imported fine into Moho, but my question is what happens when I start renaming and rearranging these?

If no updates will be done in PS is it best for me just to bring everything in as PNGs to avoid any potential nightmares?

Thanks!

Hi Yosemite and others here,

Besides the limitations there are currently also quite a lot of issues using PSD's in Moho making them not very safe to use.
Yes, you could export each and every layer to a PNG and reposition them all manually in Moho, but that's a pain to do (also I wonder if it crops the images?).

I've written a script to do this for us though: https://mohoscripts.com/script/wp_spine_import
For this to work, just install an exporter script in Photoshop (you can download that one and find all images, including tutorial video about it, here: https://github.com/EsotericSoftware/spi ... /photoshop ) (or use Krita or Affinity if you don't own photoshop to open and export the PSD) to export your layers to the Spine JSON with its individual images. You can than directly import all these in Moho using the Moho Script by just selecting the Spine JSON file.

The moho script then creates all layers for you and automatically positions all these on the same positions as they were in photoshop. The only thing you loose is the hierarchy of layers, but that would be the same when doing all these PNGs manually and often you don't need (or want) this hierarchy in Moho anyway.

It's really a one time install and after that it works super quick. AND the fun part is, it doesn't only work with Photoshop, but with Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo, Krita, After Effects, Gimp, Spine (later even Clip Studio) etc. (every program that can export to the Spine JSON). For more info and tutorial videos see the script page on mohoscripts here: https://mohoscripts.com/script/wp_spine_import

BTW Doing it like this you don't need other scripts to export and import your assets. The photoshop export script already exports all PNGs, but it now ALSO exports all locations of these. The Photoshop exporter script (but also the equivalents in at least Affinity Designer, Photo and Krita) even crops all images, which makes the Moho file more performant too.

Also there will be a way to use the same method in Clip Studio too later, because they are reworking their api so Esoteric software can also create a Spine exporter script for that program.

So basically if you followed this workflow for one program you know how it works for all the other programs too. It's litereally as simple as EXPORT in one program and IMPORT in Moho.

Hope this helps

[TheMinahBird]

I agree with TheyMinahBird: With really complex characters with lots of layers, having separate PNG files can be easier and more reliable for Moho to find and update. Some PSD programs have a command for outputting all the visible layers to PNG and can overwrite the existing files. Moho can automatically update the imported PNG layers when it detects a change.

In Photoshop, I HIGHLY recommend installing the free Photoshop-Export-Layers-to-Files-Fast tool. This tool is far more capable than the native Photoshop export layers command and, yes, it's faster too.

In Krita, there is a built-in menu script that does this. It's not nearly as nice as the above tool for Photoshop, but it gets the job done.

That said, I've been using Moho's layered PSD import feature more routinely after Moho 13.5. Previously, I avoided layered PSD because it was too easy to break the setup, but with the improvements in 13.5 and 14, layered PSD works much better now. Layered PSD will also place and scale the artwork as intended automatically. In practice, I'm finding layered PSD work fine for environments (i.e., backgrounds with BG, MG, and FG layers) and characters with a normal number of layers.

With the PNG method, positioning and scaling the layers isn't automatic when you export with trimming enabled (which is recommended.) I have to save a reference image so I can manually match the scale and position the import layers. It's really not a big deal, though, and once I've completed the setup, Moho will remember the scale and positions as it updates any changes. I used this method for many years on many TV shows.

I may still use separate PNG files when I have a ton of layers to import, and I wish to avoid containing them all in a single file which can increase the chance of broken links and corrupted data. Better safe than sorry.

Something else to consider: it's been reported that very large and complex layered PSD files can slow down Moho's performance. I haven't run into this because my PSD imports are not that complicated. I would experiment with the format and see if it works well for you. If not, consider exporting the layers as individual PNG files. (Note that the rules for layer names still apply.)

As someone that has really advanced rigs made with PSD files I can list off some issues:

1) Undo Lag: If you have bones attached to a lot of PSD layers Moho will take a minute to Undo things for you.

My rigs have Switch layers, masking, Vitruvian bones, warps etc. and there's like hundreds of layers so it can be rather exhausting to wait for it to Undo stuff.


2) Slow render start time: If you render your stuff, the render window might take a super long time to even pop up/ begin.

3) Slow to load file/rig: If you try to reopen the file, it might take forever to re-load or re-open.

4) Bone dynamics reacting unreliably or unresponsive: This I think goes hand in hand with the rig being generally laggy. I think if the slow and laggy response time was better this would also be better too.

But yeah there's a lot that can happen if you use a PSD file and the rig gets too heavy I guess?

Whereas I've noticed a heavy all vector rig or mostly PNG rig doesn't upset Moho.

I sure hope there's a fix in the future for better handling of PSD files. One can only wait and see I guess.

[Greenlaw]

Yes, you could export each and every layer to a PNG and reposition them all manually in Moho, but that's a pain to do (also I wonder if it crops the images?).

As mentioned, if a reference is output at the same time, you only need to do it once and it's not so bad. Moho will automatically use the same position and scaling for each layer every time it reloads an updated PNG.

As for cropping, it depends on the export tool you use. If you use the Export Layers To Images Fast (ELTFF ) script I mentioned, yes, trimming is an option and you can even set padding. Here's what the export panel looks like:



if you choose not to use Trimming, Moho will place and scale everything as it appears in Photoshop. There was a time when I would do this instead and use the native Cropping tool in Moho. I remember wishing Moho had an auto-crop button for this, but I stopped using this method when I found Moho cropping was incompatible with its Mesh Warping. That was when I started using the Trimming option in ELTFF, and saving a reference image along with the export.

As mentioned, earlier, this is the method I've used in many TV shows for nearly 10 years, and it's worked reliably and efficiently. I started using the new PSD system over a year ago, and it's worked reliably for me, but admittedly, I haven't created a really complex character for Moho in a while.

Additional ELTFF note for Moho: be sure to enable Overwrite Existing Files. This will ensure that the filenames are preserved so Moho can update the layers automatically.

As for Photoshop's native method, by comparison, it's...um...functional, I guess. I dislike using it because it gives the file a stupid numbered name that you can't change in the exporter, and you have to keep that stupid naming because that's how PS will overwrite it. Also, it doesn't support padding if you use trimming. My advice is to pretend this command doesn't exist in Photoshop and use the third-party ELTFF instead.

Krita's export layers to files script has very few options, but it works and it's not annoying like PS' native layers to files command..

mmmaarten, your script sounds very interesting. Thanks for sharing it and I'll check it out as soon as I'm able to.

[Greenlaw]

Hi TheMinaBird,

Thanks for making the list of your layered PSD issues! Copying the list to my Moho testing journal for future reference.

But yeah there's a lot that can happen if you use a PSD file and the rig gets too heavy I guess?

Whereas I've noticed a heavy all vector rig or mostly PNG rig doesn't upset Moho.

That sounds about right. I know the layered PSD format holds extra data for the individual layer content positions and blend modes, which likely scales up in memory with the number of layers and size. PNG is just the pixel data, so much simpler.

Using layered PSD in Moho has generally worked well for me in 13.5 and 14.1, but when in doubt, use PNG I guess.

One more tip, and this applies to PSD or PNG: Moho is not fully compatible with 16-bit color (i.e., 'trillions of colors',) and such imported images may display and render incorrectly in Moho. Moho can't export 16-bit color anyway, so it's pointless to save your imported artwork this way. I really hope this gets upgraded in future releases because nowadays many TV productions require it.

[mmmaarten]

As mentioned, if a reference is output at the same time, you only need to do it once and it's not so bad. Moho will typically use the same position and scaling for each layer every time it reloads the PNG.
...

I see you're defending and I get what you write, sure that script helps to get you half way, but you're missing the benefits of the script and the points I was making. If you want to load everything manually and/or have full screen PNGs making everything slower I'm not stopping you though, be my guest. Eerybody's got his/her/its own tempo.
I prefer to do all of this way more accurate and performant and within just a few seconds and only two clicks with this script though! Especially when needing to do this on each and every project (And good luck exactly positiong large images which display badly in Moho 14 because of decreased resolution in the new viewport/workspace, which all is not an issue when using this script because it's done automatically)
Have a nice day! Love you still

BTW if I don't 'speak' to you guys later this week here, enjoy your holidays/Christmas! Enjoy

[Greenlaw]

Thanks mmmaarten! I hope you have a wonderful holiday season too!

[Yosemite Sam]

Hope this helps.

Hey, it was all super helpful. Thank you so much for the valuable info!

[Yosemite Sam]

I'd suggest turning the layers to PNG files then rig them. Moho works WAAAAAAY better with PNGs than PSD layers!

You have to be very specific and delicate with PSD layers and there's no guarantee Moho will run as fast or smoothly once the project gets too complex.

Yeah I'm going that route. Appreciate all the insight!

[Yosemite Sam]

Hope this helps
[/quote]

So I installed it in photoshop. I got this notification and no images were exported. What exactly does this mean and what is an easy solution?

Multiple layers for the "default" skin in the "2" slot have the same name "2":
+Annabelle/Head/Mouth/W-Oo/2
+Annabelle/Head/Mouth/Uh/2
+Annabelle/Head/Mouth/Aa/2
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Lids/Half/2
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Lids/Squint/2
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Blink/Left Blink/2
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/+Right Pupil/spin/2
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Lids/Half/2
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Lids/Squint/2
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Blink/Right Blink/2
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+heart/2
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+question/2
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+exclamation/2
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+lightbulb/2
Rename or use the [ignore] tag for these layers.
---
Multiple layers for the "default" skin in the "1" slot have the same name "1":
+Annabelle/Head/Mouth/W-Oo/1
+Annabelle/Head/Mouth/Uh/1
+Annabelle/Head/Mouth/Aa/1
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Lids/Half/1
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Lids/Squint/1
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Blink/Left Blink/1
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/+Right Pupil/spin/1
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Lids/Half/1
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Lids/Squint/1
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Blink/Right Blink/1
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+heart/1
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+question/1
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+exclamation/1
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+lightbulb/1
Rename or use the [ignore] tag for these layers.
---
Multiple layers for the "default" skin in the "3" slot have the same name "3":
+Annabelle/Head/Mouth/W-Oo/3
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Lids/Half/3
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Blink/Left Blink/3
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/+Right Pupil/spin/3
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Lids/Half/3
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Blink/Right Blink/3
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+heart/3
Rename or use the [ignore] tag for these layers.
---
Multiple layers for the "default" skin in the "mask" slot have the same name "mask":
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/mask
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/mask
Rename or use the [ignore] tag for these layers.
---
Multiple layers for the "default" skin in the "Eye Lashes_02" slot have the same name "Eye Lashes_02":
+Annabelle/Head/+Left Eye/Left Eye Normal/Eye Lashes_02
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/Eye Lashes_02
Rename or use the [ignore] tag for these layers.
---
Multiple layers for the "default" skin in the "4" slot have the same name "4":
+Annabelle/Head/+Right Eye/Right Eye Normal/+Right Pupil/spin/4
+Annabelle/Head/+props/+heart/4
Rename or use the [ignore] tag for these layers.



Update: It seems that the PSD uses a bunch of effects layers (primarily to recolor a certain layer). And the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 etc are reused for each of these. Do I need to go through relabel these or is there a setting to export as is?

[mmmaarten]

So I installed it in photoshop. I got this notification and no images were exported. What exactly does this mean and what is an easy solution?

Hi Yosemite, I didn't write that Photoshop script, Esoteric software (makers of Spine) did. I only wrote the Moho script to import from spine.json file.
I also don't own Photoshop for years anymore so I cannot test it. But good that you posted it here; the messages seems like you expected; I'll do my best to explain it;

In Spine a 'Slot' means something that is connected to a bone, in this case an image (Spine is animation software which has a rigging system with a skeleton like Moho does). So you can read 'slot' as 'image' here.
It makes sense that each layer you want to export needs to have a unique name, because that name is also used to use in the rig normally and is used as a name for the image to export.
It doesn't make much sense to have multiple layers having the same name, because if the exporter would accept that it would either overwrite the same image multiple times (and mess up your rig) or mess up the names of your rig.
Unique names you should have either way when you want to export to images, no matter what method you're using. It's always best to have all layers having unique names in Photoshop or other software.

BTW to also give you some info on what 'skin' means; In Spine each character rig can have multiple skins, meaning you can change the complete images of that rig into something completely different on the spot. That way you can create different characters using the same rig. But in your case, because you're exporting to Moho, that's of non importance to you, so everything is just the 'default skin'. Which is what your script is rightfully doing.

I think when your layer names are unique it should work. If not, than just flatten your layers first, meaning to convert your effect layers to pixels so they can be exported to images. Because PNG image files cannot hold effects, only pixels.

Hope this helps. If you encounter more issues using the Photoshop exporter (which I don't expect considering your log) than you could ask again here, or put your question on the Spine forum here https://esotericsoftware.com/forum/ or Spine discord. They are the developers of that Photoshop script. You could also open the PSD in Affinity Photo or Designer or in Krita and export it from there to spine JSON. But those export scripts work similar and the photoshop script is the one to rule them all.
But you can always try to ask here first. I know Spine and it's json format pretty well and use the similar export script in other software so I'll probably be able to help you.

I do however advise you to watch the TUTORIAL VIDEO of the Photoshop exporter first. They probably address this in there:


The import process in Moho is pretty straightforward though; just install the moho script, launch the tool and browse to your spine.json file and it loads everything in Moho including all layer names (another reason why all your layer names should be unique).

[Yosemite Sam]

So I installed it in Photoshop. I got this notification and no images were exported. What exactly does this mean and what is an easy solution?

Hi Yosemite, I didn't write that Photoshop script, Esoteric software (makers of Spine) did. I only wrote the Moho script to import from spine.json file.
I also don't own Photoshop for years anymore so I cannot test it. But good that you posted it here; the messages seems like you expected; I'll do my best to explain it;

In Spine a 'Slot' means something that is connected to a bone, in this case an image (Spine is animation software which has a rigging system with a skeleton like Moho does). So you can read 'slot' as 'image' here.
It makes sense that each layer you want to export needs to have a unique name, because that name is also used to use in the rig normally and is used as a name for the image to export.
It doesn't make much sense to have multiple layers having the same name, because if the exporter would accept that it would either overwrite the same image multiple times (and mess up your rig) or mess up the names of your rig.
Unique names you should have either way when you want to export to images, no matter what method you're using. It's always best to have all layers having unique names in Photoshop or other software.

BTW to also give you some info on what 'skin' means; In Spine each character rig can have multiple skins, meaning you can change the complete images of that rig into something completely different on the spot. That way you can create different characters using the same rig. But in your case, because you're exporting to Moho, that's of non importance to you, so everything is just the 'default skin'. Which is what your script is rightfully doing.

I think when your layer names are unique it should work. If not, than just flatten your layers first, meaning to convert your effect layers to pixels so they can be exported to images. Because PNG image files cannot hold effects, only pixels.

Hope this helps. If you encounter more issues using the Photoshop exporter (which I don't expect considering your log) than you could ask again here, or put your question on the Spine forum here https://esotericsoftware.com/forum/ or Spine discord. They are the developers of that Photoshop script. You could also open the PSD in Affinity Photo or Designer or in Krita and export it from there to spine JSON. But those export scripts work similar and the photoshop script is the one to rule them all.
But you can always try to ask here first. I know Spine and it's json format pretty well and use the similar export script in other software so I'll probably be able to help you.

I do however advise you to watch the TUTORIAL VIDEO of the Photoshop exporter first. They probably address this in there:


The import process in Moho is pretty straightforward though; just install the moho script, launch the tool and browse to your spine.json file and it loads everything in Moho including all layer names (another reason why all your layer names should be unique).

So I renamed all the images in Photoshop, exported them with the script, but when I use Moho Spine Importer, and pick any image it says "Only Spine files with extension .json are allowed'

Just to be clear, all I want to do is export layers as pngs from photoshop, then import the PNGs while maintaining scale and relationship to one another so I don't have to adjust everything.