Transform separate layers at the same time

[Clumsy Potato]

Got Moho recently, and while I'm excited to fiddle with it, boy...is it hard to figure out even how to do basic stuff in there. Unfortunately, I have 0 knowledge of vector programs like Illustrator or Affinity Design, so I tried to make my first puppet within Moho only, and kept scratching my head about a few things:

-How do I transform 2 layers at the same time? I can select them, but only change one at a time.
https://imgur.com/hL4YpTn
https://imgur.com/K5Uzco2

Also, are these normal? Will they appear in the final animation?
https://imgur.com/45E8cu0

For some unknown reason, the Imgur links I tried to post as images didn't work, so I put them as links instead.

[Greenlaw]

The easiest way to transform multiple layers is to place them in a group and transform the group. Using Set Origin, you can move the 'pivot point' of the group to the position where you want to transform from.

I typically use this method during animation but not rigging. During the rigging phase, it's best to draw everything to the desired scale and not rely on layer transformations; otherwise, you may run into conflicting transformations during animation.

AFAIK, this is the only way to do multi-layer transforms natively in Moho (<-Stop! Ignore this statement and see below) but there is probably a custom tool out there for this. Sorry, I don't have any recommendations off the top of my head, but I can look into it this evening.

[Greenlaw]

Oh, wait...what am I saying! You certainly can transform multiple layers at once. (Sorry, it's been a long day.)

Just shift-click all the layers and be sure to use Transform Layer, not Transform Points.

[Greenlaw]

For example...



First, I selected both layers, Circle and Triangle, by Shift-Clicking each layer. (You can also use Ctrl-Click for non-continguous layers.) The I used Transform Layer (not Transform Points) to transform both layers at once.

If the transform widget only appears around the last selection, don't worry because they are actually both selected for the transformation. (How it appears depends on the order of selection and the shapes in the layer, but it really doesn't matter for the transform.)

In this case, you don't want to mess with changing the origin for any layers because Moho will use it, and you probably want each layer to share the same origin for predictable transformations.

If you have previously moved the origin for the layers, then you will probably want to use the Group method I suggested earlier. This is because only the Group's origin will be used, and the individual layer origins will be ignored.

[Clumsy Potato]

Thank you for the reply!
I would like to rig, so maybe the second method may mess up my puppet's movements later(many tutorials were not recommending it, at least). So the only alternative is to group them? They are already inside a group called "head", so do I need to create another folder inside this one as well?

[Greenlaw]

Thank you for the reply!
I would like to rig, so maybe the second method may mess up my puppet's movements later(many tutorials were not recommending it, at least). So the only alternative is to group them? They are already inside a group called "head", so do I need to create another folder inside this one as well?

As I don't know how you've set up your rig, I can only say try it and see if it works for you. Adding extra groups doesn't affect the performance of a rig, so unless you have a good reason for not adding the group, I say go for it. FWIW, I tend to use a lot of groups in my setups. This is mainly for organizational reasons, but I also use nested groups to have multiple pivot points for certain elements. For me, any trick that makes the character easier to rig and animate is a good one.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "many tutorials were not recommending it..." If you mean scaling layers during drawing and rigging, then yes, I agree. As mentioned, it's best to create your drawings at the correct scale in frame 0. If you need to resize the artwork, you should resize the artwork directly inside the layer, not resize the layer itself. Transforming multiple layers at different scales before you rig it can potentially cause problems when you go to animate it. But really, it depends on how you intend to rig and animate the character. With some approaches, the scaling might not matter. Let's just say, as a general rule of thumb, you should avoid scaling layers in frame 0.

Tip #1: make a single frame render of your current layout and import the render to the same project. You can use this layer as a guide for scaling and positioning your elements. Even if you're transforming the artwork (not the layer) one at a time, the process really should go pretty quickly, especially if you haven't started rigging it yet.

Tip #2: when I'm uncertain about something, I'll make a simplified proof-of-concept test project and check the result. This saves me from making serious mistakes in my rigs and wasting a lot of time. By 'simplified', I mean something like the junky projects I post as examples in these forums.

Tip #3: For me, the best way to learn is to allow myself to make some mistakes...but I also make a lot of incremental saves too. This way, when I screw up badly, I can recover immediately by regressing to an earlier version. It's a good habit for working in any program, and the practice probably saves me many hours of work daily.

Hope this helps.

[Clumsy Potato]

Thank you for the reply!
I would like to rig, so maybe the second method may mess up my puppet's movements later(many tutorials were not recommending it, at least). So the only alternative is to group them? They are already inside a group called "head", so do I need to create another folder inside this one as well?

As I don't know how you've set up your rig, I can only say try it and see if it works for you. Adding extra groups doesn't affect the performance of a rig, so unless you have a good reason for not adding the group, I say go for it. FWIW, I tend to use a lot of groups in my setups. This is mainly for organizational reasons, but I also use nested groups to have multiple pivot points for certain elements. For me, any trick that makes the character easier to rig and animate is a good one.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "many tutorials were not recommending it..." If you mean scaling layers during drawing and rigging, then yes, I agree. As mentioned, it's best to create your drawings at the correct scale in frame 0. If you need to resize the artwork, you should resize the artwork directly inside the layer, not resize the layer itself. Transforming multiple layers at different scales before you rig it can potentially cause problems when you go to animate it. But really, it depends on how you intend to rig and animate the character. With some approaches, the scaling might not matter. Let's just say, as a general rule of thumb, you should avoid scaling layers in frame 0.

Tip #1: make a single frame render of your current layout and import the render to the same project. You can use this layer as a guide for scaling and positioning your elements. Even if you're transforming the artwork (not the layer) one at a time, the process really should go pretty quickly, especially if you haven't started rigging it yet.

Tip #2: when I'm uncertain about something, I'll make a simplified proof-of-concept test project and check the result. This saves me from making serious mistakes in my rigs and wasting a lot of time. By 'simplified', I mean something like the junky projects I post as examples in these forums.

Tip #3: For me, the best way to learn is to allow myself to make some mistakes...but I also make a lot of incremental saves too. This way, when I screw up badly, I can recover immediately by regressing to an earlier version. It's a good habit for working in any program, and the practice probably saves me many hours of work daily.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the tips!
I'm still a little confused, but I'll try and see what I can do. It's not rigged yet, I was just trying to draw the first angle of the character, but I made the ears a little bigger than they were supposed to be, and couldn't scale the 2 of them at the same time to fit the reference character sheet(the image in this post was not the character itself, just an example I drew outside Moho). I'll try to make an svg file in Clip Studio Paint and import it to Moho to see if it's easier than using Moho only. CSP is crap with vectors, but maybe it can work.

[Greenlaw]

'll try to make an svg file in Clip Studio Paint and import it to Moho to see if it's easier than using Moho only. CSP is crap with vectors, but maybe it can work.

Unless this has changed in recent years, I don't think CSP exports vector files, only bitmaps. But if it can export SVG now, let me know. (I use CSP for all my comics but I haven't drawn a comic in a few years.)

If you're rigging vector art for characters, Moho's native vector tools are actually quite good, and IMO preferable because I can optimize the point placements for rigging. For example, I drew all the character art used in our Boss Baby: Back In Business show on Netflix using only Moho's native tools, and it went quickly and very smoothly.

In my experience, when the vector art is drawn outside of Moho, rigging for nice deformations can get less predictable. I only use an external vector drawing program when I need something technical or geometrically complex. (Like some of the screen graphics I made for Fast and Furious: Spy Racers a few years ago.)

Hope this helps.

[Clumsy Potato]

'll try to make an svg file in Clip Studio Paint and import it to Moho to see if it's easier than using Moho only. CSP is crap with vectors, but maybe it can work.

Unless this has changed in recent years, I don't think CSP exports vector files, only bitmaps. But if it can export SVG now, let me know. (I use CSP for all my comics but I haven't drawn a comic in a few years.)

If you're rigging vector art for characters, Moho's native vector tools are actually quite good, and IMO preferable because I can optimize the point placements for rigging. For example, I drew all the character art used in our Boss Baby: Back In Business show on Netflix using only Moho's native tools, and it went quickly and very smoothly.

In my experience, when the vector art is drawn outside of Moho, rigging for nice deformations can get less predictable. I only use an external vector drawing program when I need something technical or geometrically complex. (Like some of the screen graphics I made for Fast and Furious: Spy Racers a few years ago.)

Hope this helps.

Yes, CSP now can export SVG files! But as I said, it's TERRIBLE for vectors, I wouldn't recommend it unless there's no other way around. Note: importing svg from CSP to Moho didn't work very well. CSP creates too many points in their vector lines, and reducing them makes the shape look ugly deformed.
I enjoyed Moho's vector tools, they are very easy and intuitive to use, I just dislike how it's been taking days for me to figure out how I can transform and scale more than one vetor layer together. Manually transforming and scaling each shape/lines one by one is not the best approach. And Transform Layer (M) is not quite what I'm looking for, and can mess things up. :/

[Greenlaw]

When I need to edit vectors in separate layers at the same time, I use a Multi-Layer Magnet Tool by E.Evseeva found here...

Multilayer Magnet Tool


There is probably a Transform Points version of this tool somewhere, but I'd have to look around for it.

In my experience, however, it's rare when I need to use this tool when I'm drawing character art in Moho. My workflow is to import a character design to trace from and break out the layers as I make each body part drawing. Because I'm working directly from the character sheet, I get exactly what I need with no scale or misplaced parts errors. I highly recommend working this way. For character art, it's less frustrating than drawing a character 'from scratch' in Moho.

[Greenlaw]

Oh, here we go. SimplSam created a Multilayer Transform Points tool and uploaded it here...

Multilayer Transform Points

I'm sure I'd seen this before and forgot about it. It should be handy during animation and when setting up Smart Bone Actions. I'm glad to have discovered this again.

I think this will do what you're asking for.

[Clumsy Potato]

Oh, here we go. SimplSam created a Multilayer Transform Points tool and uploaded it here...

Multilayer Transform Points

I'm sure I'd seen this before and forgot about it. It should be handy during animation and when setting up Smart Bone Actions. I'm glad to have discovered this again.

I think this will do what you're asking for.

Thank you so much! These are awesome, very close to what I wanted!
I also found MR Curve Tool there, and it's great for moving and deforming my shapes as well.
The multilayer magnet doesn't seem to work though? I selected the layers to use it, but it kept deforming only one layer(maybe I missed some shortcut/button to press?)

[Greenlaw]

The multilayer magnet doesn't seem to work though? I selected the layers to use it, but it kept deforming only one layer(maybe I missed some shortcut/button to press?)

Check that you have Multilayer enabled. It's disabled by default.

[Clumsy Potato]

The multilayer magnet doesn't seem to work though? I selected the layers to use it, but it kept deforming only one layer(maybe I missed some shortcut/button to press?)

Check that you have Multilayer enabled. It's disabled by default.

Uh...I was clicking the script magnet icon instead of the regular magnet icon. It worked now \o/
(*I'm still a little clumsy learning this thing*)

[Clumsy Potato]

It's basically solved then~
Now I have a problem with masked layers, gotta make a new post for that~