Lost Scripts' Shapes Window (**New** BETA 3) for Moho 14.1 Pro

[Rai López]

This script works great for organizing liquid shapes. No errors here using latest version and Moho 14.1

A little late, but thank you for the (always welcomed) feedback

This panel or something similar should come by default with Moho in the future.

I've been talking here more about technical things than conceptual, but since you bring up the subject and I found some time... Really, my thinking about all this is that a new Moho window couldn't be even necessary in this case after all, since what I think I'd found more natural is simply can unfold vector layers and get the shape list with Liquid state or any other visual info (plus interaction, of course) right away, that would solve all the blindness and not only regarding that, but also for animated shape ordering or whatever. If space was a problem, well, shape items well could be quite thinner than actual layers and... I don't know, maybe you only could unfold one vector layer at a time?

The case is, even though I'm kind of happy with the results, should I could have done that, I don't think I would have created a window fo it for the exposed reasons, so I sincerely think that's the way an almighty developer should take in case there is interest on implementing something like this, thing that of course I'd love in any of both ways.

[Daxel]

Really, my thinking about all this is that a new Moho window couldn't be even necessary in this case after all, since what I think I'd found more natural is simply can unfold vector layers and get the shape list with Liquid state or any other visual info (plus interaction, of course) right away, that would solve all the blindness and not only regarding that, but also for animated shape ordering or whatever. If space was a problem, well, shape items well could be quite thinner than actual layers and... I don't know, maybe you only could unfold one vector layer at a time?

I personally would prefer a panel than having that info inside the layer panel, that to me, just for the amount of layers we work with, is already the biggest and the most cluttered one.

Even if the shape order can be folded into the layer, I would be constantly unfolding it to see the shapes. Moho rigs can get quite complex, and just seeing the shape panel each time I select a new layer helps me to remember "ah yeah this was the layer with the mask and the liquid shape that acts as whatever..."

I thought "well, an option to auto unfold the shapes on the selected layer could work" but then again, my eyes would be searching for it in my big layer panel. It can be up in the list or down, or not even visible (by the way right now selecting a layer clicking on it's name on the timeline panel works but it doesn't show the layer in the layer panel.)

So yeah I personally would enjoy the dedicated panel more, or having it in the style panel maybe. But as you say, any option would be a nice improvement.

The best for me would be to have contextual workspaces. I mean having the option to make Moho auto open the style panel or the shapes panel only when a vector layer is selected. Moho would have a few modes, like "while in a bone layer", "while in a vector layer", "while in a fbf layer", "while hand drawing selected" and you could choose which panels have to be shown at each mode.

[Rai López]

Those are all good points indeed Daxel, so thanks for joining/enriching the discussion. Indeed they made me think I could be a little too biased due to the simplicity and naturality of the vector layer unfolding concept, I mean, there is no new paradigms or elements (OK, the Shape item itself would be a new UI element, but it'll follow the logic of everything else) to get used to on that, and I think that's how it's solved on most vector based programs, but of course Moho is not only vectors but also animation, and that makes you have to go navigating through layers much more frequently and it's true a separated panel would require less actions from part of the user to get showed what you want... So, yeah, good point on that.

About the contextual workspaces, well, I'm not sure if you are referring to this or to something more elaborated, but I always liked the way it's solved in Cinema 4D, where basically you have a contextual "Properties" panel/window that shows all controls/info about the object you are working on and it happens to be very intuitive and powerful (for offering more space, tabs, etc.). But, again, Moho has its own consecrated concept more based on the currently selected tool and its toolbar and, although it can be more limited in space and therefore possibilities, I don't know if we can expect/need big changes on that. But that may be want to go too far for now? I mean, if we limit our thinking to an official Shapes Panel for now (the one more missed anyway, from my POV of course) there is really nothing to worry about regarding new concepts or whatever, and more if it could be included into the actual Style Window, since in that case we wouldn't even be talking about having to deal with a new window after all...

Well, just some more thoughts! Maybe, in part, it'd be just a matter of get used to one system or the other given that both can have it's advantages but, anyway, as we seem to agree, the point is whatever that helped on getting better shapes management and state feedback would be welcomed.

[Daxel]

About the contextual workspaces, well, I'm not sure if you are referring to this or to something more elaborated, but I always liked the way it's solved in Cinema 4D, where basically you have a contextual "Properties" panel/window that shows all controls/info about the object you are working on and it happens to be very intuitive and powerful (for offering more space, tabs, etc.). But, again, Moho has its own consecrated concept more based on the currently selected tool and its toolbar and, although it can be more limited in space and therefore possibilities, I don't know if we can expect/need big changes on that.

By contextual workspaces I'm referring to something even simpler, because Moho already have one workspace. No new panel or section would be needed. Maybe workspace is not the right word, I think layout could be the right one (English is not my first language).

Right now, Moho already have layouts but only one, the "current" one. We know that because the panels are always like we left them, even between sessions.

This layout is saving 3 properties for each of the 7 panels: the position of each panel, their "open/closed" state and their "docked/undocked" state.

So my proposal would be to let the users save not only this current layout like now, but a few. So users can save a "drawing layout", a "bone animation layout", etc to their needs and tastes. Maybe I want the style panel open when I'm drawing but the timeline panel closed, but maybe I want exactly the opposite when I'm animating bones. Right now, the user would have to manually close, open, position, dock and undock panels each time he wants to adapt the layout to the current task, which in practice means nobody does it, and the biggest problem is that this means Moho needs to be extra careful with the size and the clutter of each panel knowing that users will have to deal with most of them all the time, even if they are not relevant for the currect task.

The simpler version of custom layouts would consist in being able to save more than one layout, and being able to assign shortcuts to those custom layouts. Because Moho already saves one layout, this shouldn't be hard to do.

The better version of custom layouts would be contextual custom layouts. This is the same but the user wouldn't need to memorise and use shortcuts to change the layout, it would automatically change depending on the current task, which would be identified by the current tool or the current selected layer type. So Moho would have a "contextual activation" option that you can enable for each custom layout and there you could assign a tool or a layer type as activator of the custom layout. The user would save its layout without timeline panel but with style panel as "drawing layout" and then he would enable the free hand tool as contextual activator, for example.

Now I'm thinking I want this so bad I may actually be able to do it using keyboard macros, so when I use the shortcut for the freehand tool, a macros software could automatically activate the shortcut for "close timeline panel" for example... but then I would have to create macros for all the other tools to bring the timeline panel back again... so maybe not. Enough procrastination for today.

[Rai López]

Yeah, the classical layouts/workspaces then. Of course I can see their usefulness (otherwise it wouldn't be present in basically every program anyway), but I admit I always end up adjusting the default one to meet my more general needs and then forget about it, but who knows if maybe some kind of contextual automation like you propose could change that habit... In any case, maybe that's another reason of being in general inclined to the less windows possible kind of solutions, because the lesser the windows/panels (meanwhile reasonable possible, of course) the lesser the need of that, but, again, that's just my particular case and that doesn't mean I don't see it like a fair request, eh! It's just I may not the more appropriate one to discuss about such subject...

OTOH, what I'd love and I kind of requested indeed a short while ago, is the possibility of getting access to Moho commands/shortcuts so that we could automate actions by Lua, which would natively allow what you propose by using macros and much more, although it's true Moho doesn't currently allows too much UI customization (over all with docked panels in mind), but that would be another matter of discussion.

Well, hope it makes sense and I expressed myself (not my first language either ) well!

[Lae82]

When you press "shape select" in moho where you can order or create liquid shapes this tool could either popup or have a button in the top toolbar to show the liquid layers panel. Auto popup check box could as well be in the top toolbar. This tool is not always needed and could be closed down to save screen space. But having it accessible through "shape select" then a "liquid shapes layers" button would improve moho. It could also be accessed through top menu and windows/docking options.

Liquid shapes is kind of a big feature for moho so it definitely needs some attention on how to organize the shapes.

[Daxel]

It's just I may not the more appropriate one to discuss about such subject...

I was kind of thinking out loud here, because your shapes panel is one of those I love to keep open while I'm doing certain tasks but it's only taking up space when I'm doing others.

When you press "shape select" in moho where you can order or create liquid shapes this tool could either popup or have a button in the top toolbar to show the liquid layers panel. Auto popup check box could as well be in the top toolbar.

I thought the same, but I end up liking to see the shapes in many more moments, probably all the time I have a vector layer selected (drawing, transforming points, creating shapes, etc).

[Rai López]

When you press "shape select" in moho where you can order or create liquid shapes this tool could either popup or have a button in the top toolbar to show the liquid layers panel. Auto popup check box could as well be in the top toolbar.

Indeed, if I understood well, that's how this script started to be, as a popup dialog in the Select Shape tool's toolbar, but making it a modeless dialog implied some benefits I wanted to explore and here we are... But some of your suggestions seem doable and I had indeed the intention to include them, while others like auto popup are not feasible due to some know API limitations, like windows positioning or popup dialogs invocation.

This tool is not always needed and could be closed down to save screen space

That's why I've always tried to maintain it as narrow as possible, although it's true as I went adding features it has been fattening up, but always that in mind and trying to keep a balance... Of course the best outcome is we could someday can dock this kind of dialog windows, but that may be like too much to ask for now and I'll be more than happy if only the dialog location could be remembered.

Liquid shapes is kind of a big feature for moho so it definitely needs some attention on how to organize the shapes.

Yep


And hopefully that will somehow cover Daxel's last post as well? So time to return to code

[mohgirl]

May I ask if it is possible to create an animation of the up and down relationships in shapes

[Daxel]

May I ask if it is possible to create an animation of the up and down relationships in shapes

You mean to animate the shape order? You can do that but first you have to activate animated shape order, inside Layer settings / Vectors.

[mohgirl]

May I ask if it is possible to create an animation of the up and down relationships in shapes

You mean to animate the shape order? You can do that but first you have to activate animated shape order, inside Layer settings / Vectors.

yes

[Rai López]

When you press "shape select" in moho where you can order or create liquid shapes this tool could either popup or have a button in the top toolbar to show the liquid layers panel. Auto popup check box could as well be in the top toolbar.

Coming back to that... Still testing, but should I could successfully make the dialog available from the Select Shape tool in a similar way the Select Bone's "Bone Constraints" one is, what do you guys think would be preferable, an option to only make it accesible one way (by Tools palette OR Select Shape's button) or still leave both options (so, Tools palette AND Select Shape's button) to can open it in one way or another at any time depending on convenience? I'm more inclined to this last one, but the other may be more clean/tidy? Although OTOH we still have the Show in "Tools" panel option to hide it there if desired...

Of course, all this taking into account the Select Shapes's button won't be able to unfold the dialog automatically, I mean, you'll have to activate the Select Shape tool and then manually press the toolbar button to really get the panel unfolded (though of course it will remain open until you close it or perform a tool change). Or perhaps this limitation makes it not even worth the effort? Well, thanks in advance for any feedback!

[Daxel]

Hmmm... the way I use it, having it as a manually unfolding dialog in the select layer tool doesn't improve usability, because unfolding it requires the same effort as clicking on the tool in the tools panel, and I want to use the shapes window more often than the select shapes tool anyway. It may improve discoverability though, a little bit, but being a tool script we assume the user knows about it if he installed it.

I wonder if it's possible to make the tool button (the one in the tools panel) close the shapes window when it's already open. That way, the shortcut assigned to the tool could be used as a open/close shapes panel shortcut.

[Rai López]

Thanks for the quick reply, Daxel! Yeah, that's why I thought it could not really worth it, but I still see on it the advantage of not have to move the window from the center of the screen to wherever else on every opening, which definitely could be something, isn't it? But I'm still debating myself about whether it's really worth it or not... The case I was enjoining testing this thing because it could bring another (great) benefits, but most likely not for this particular script, so the most intelligent movement may be go back to where I was so that I can ship the last beta as soon as possible, the last with new features at (last) least...

I wonder if it's possible to make the tool button (the one in the tools panel) close the shapes window when it's already open. That way, the shortcut assigned to the tool could be used as a open/close shapes panel shortcut.

It may be possible, although I might have to make some test or think a little more about it to really can say. But the problem is always the same, you'll surely have to take your mouse in order to move the window aside anyway, so (again) probably the benefit wouldn't be as great as it could seem after all. EDIT: Oh, yeah, here we are really talking about just closing it, so have to move the window has nothin to do with that, I think I messed things up trying to also reply quickly!

[synthsin75]

Yeah, that's a very interesting idea. If it toggles the dialog on and off, you might not need to move it. Just hit the shortcut, use the dialog, and hit the shortcut again to dismiss it.