Warp layer issues, what am I doing wrong, what's the right way for full control?

[mmmaarten]

Hi Mohoians,

This must be my badest monday, even though it's saturday. I was just starting a thread here and have to do this all over again now, because only after working half an hour on a detailed message and only after hitting Submit this forum complained that I wasn't logged in, to give no way to get my message back. It was just gone. Even after doing a browser back <-- this should be a crying smily, but can't find it here (monday again, haha)

Anyway, I'll try again;

After trying since yesterday evening to create a more advanced Warp Layer with full control over its faces/vertices/warp, I still can't get it to work. I followed several tutorial videos, did a lot of Googling and tried many things, but I keep getting holes in my mesh/image or an error message that make no sense to me. I also have lots of questions about the workflow as there seem to be different workflows around and it's hard to tell them apart sometimes and/or if these can be mixed and matched.

A) This is where the issues started: after working a long time to create triangles and quads in this Warp Layer and hit Triangulate 2D mesh, I keep on getting this Picasso issue with holes in the mesh:


Although it looks quite artsy, it's clearly not what I'm after.

I have created a screenrecording of it:
.

It's clear that I'm doing something wrong, but AFAIK I'm not doing anything other than several tutorial videos I've watched. Also I checked everything a milion times and recreated the same from scratch several times. And no error is thrown. So I'm out of clues on what could cause this issue and how to avoid it/do things the right way.

B) I also tried to do everything manually by creating a Vector layer like Victor does in this (obsolete) tutorial video:
.
But in order to convert it to a Warp layer what could I do??? When hitting Triangulate 2D mesh I get triangles, which wouldn't make much sense to me because I already have a combination of quads and triangles and why loose the triangles if Moho is capable of handling them? Either way I tried it, but it didn't work as expected.

C) I even started a complete new file and only drew 2 quads. But got an error from the fill quads script. They are really quads and no doubles because I can move all points around and don't see any points behind. But when running the script 'Fill Quad Mesh' from the Draw scripts menu it keeps throwing an error (doesn't matter how many times I check and try over and over) that there's something wrong with the quads. But it doesn't say what is wrong and AFAIK there's nothing wrong with the quads. At least I really see 3 clear quads and wouldn't know what could be wrong with them. Please see video here of one of the tries I did:


D) I tried filling the faces of the quads, but that didn't help either.

I really would like to have full control over this mesh and besides that I would just like to know how it works in Moho and what I'm doing wrong to be able to handle everything meshes and continue the project I'm working on, but I'm kinda stuck right now and it's getting a little bit frustrated after searching for information and trying for hours.

So I now have the following questions and hope that somebody could help me with those:
1) Why do I get these Picasso issues (holes in image/mesh)? What am I doing wrong?
2) Is Triangulate 2D Mesh even needed after using the automatic warp layer creation from image and manually adding vertices/edges to the mesh with 'guide lines'? Or should it work without triangulate? Is doing triangulate bad in this case or doesn't it matter much? (What does it do underwater so that I can understand?)
3) I don't mind doing things manually from scratch (starting with a vector layer to create a mesh), but in order to convert it to a warp layer AFAIK we need to run 'Triangulate 2D mesh' or the 'Fill Quads' script from the scripts draw menu right? So how could we ever use a combination of quads and triangles as a warp layer?
4) Is it necesary to fill quads with the bucket tool? Or is that only needed when needing to set a drawing order?
5) Why is the video by Victor doing manual editing saying 'obsolete' in the title? Does this mean it's not supported anymore in 13.5.5? And/or what's the workflow that came in its place than? Where can I find a tutorial on that new workflow?
6) Is there a way to check the geometry of the mesh on errors other than looking in the viewport? Like running some check script to see what we need to fix?
7) Is it allowed to change the mesh after we ran the triangulage 2D mesh or fill quad script?
8 ) Is my assumption right that the 'Triangulate 2D mesh' and 'Fill Quad script' do the same, but only the first with tris and the second with quads?

Hope this all makes sense.

And hope somebody could give me some direction on this and tell me what I'm doing wrong and make me understand the advanced workflows on meshes to have full control.

That would be really appreciated!

Alright, going to copy this text now in the clipboard before I hit Submit now... just in case I'll loose the text again

Thanks in advance!

[Daxel]

I don't have time right now but it looks like your confusion comes from the fact that Meshes received a lot of upgrades in the latest updates so old tutorials are obsolete for that reason. Watch only the ones from this last year and you should be fine. Meshes now are super cool! The latest technique is called live meshes and you can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cp31bAgNeo
And here too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHNvjlcR8tI

[mmmaarten]

I don't have time right now but it looks like your confusion comes from the fact that Meshes received a lot of upgrades in the latest updates so old tutorials are obsolete for that reason. Watch only the ones from this last year and you should be fine. Meshes now are super cool! The latest technique is called live meshes and you can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cp31bAgNeo
And here too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHNvjlcR8tI

Thanks Daxel, yeah, I think so too. I got a bit lost in the jungle of different workflows and it's hard to know what workflow should still be active/used and what doesn't work anymore / isn't needed/deprecated.

I've seen the videos you posted earlier, but by looking at it again now, I see two things that are helpful now that you pointed me to this as the right workflow;

1) Neither triangulate nor fill quads seems necesary for this method. I wonder if it harmed something if I do and could be the cause of the issue

2) But this will probably be the real issue I'm facing right now says my gut feeling (and tbh I was already a little bit afraid of that):


Going to try now to see if it works when leaving the 'guides' open. [edit] yes! this did the trick. That's a great automatic workflow to know with some semi control after the automatic behaviour. However, it's not the complete manual control I'm after for this mesh and like to learn. Great to have one complete workflow down now tho, and I've just documented it for myself.

BTW I think it's incredibly cool and so very useful that warp layers / meshes are just layers and that it's so easy to just remove them and create another one from scratch! Really love how flexible Moho made that!

This live mesh feature (which looks absolutely great and intuitive, props to the developer(s) for this) still is an automatic behaviour thing that seems like it doesn't make it possible to exactly define quads and tris. So I'm sure there must be a manual workflow in Moho still, but I'm kindof lost on what that should be in 13.5.5 now. So although extremely helpful and I'll probably use this live meshes one a lot, I'm still looking for a way to exactly tell where points and quads/triangles faces are for full and exact control and do things like prioritising which faces gets rendered first and stuff like that.

Yes! One workflow down! Now what would be the manual and exact full control workflow to do this in the latest Moho? (for exact locations of vertices/points/quads/tris/foldings and closed regions, but also to set render priorities)

[mmmaarten]

I'm starting to come a little closer to the answer to the manual workflow, however there is a thing I keep on bumping into:

By watching this webinare here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15hvYunOMTk I see the guy doing around 19'53" exactly what I need and I tried before many times; use a Vector layer to draw a mesh and assign that to the image layer.

When I do exactly as this guy does; using a grid shape, I see the Vector layer inside the image layer to pick as a warp layer.

However, I don't want to have this grid shape, I want a complete custom shape made with the Add Points tool (or the Mr Curve tool). But whatever I do, when using the Add Points tool and create even just a simple rectangle, the Vector layer never appears in the warp layer dropdown inside the image layer properties. There is the problem I'm facing with manual meshes.

If I could get a Vector layer with the mesh defined by drawn triangles and quads by the Add Points tool (or Mr Curve tool) to popup there to chose as warp layer that's exactly what I need.

BTW I also tried if creating a shape from the free drawn rectangle helped, but it doesn't unfortunately.

But how to make that vector layer appear as a warp layer in the dropdown? It should work, because it also works with a grid shape in a vector layer, but how???

[mmmaarten]

Cool! I finally found it for the complete manual workflow too now!

The Vector layer never pops up in the warp layers dropdown of an image layer WHEN IT HAS NO INDIVIDUAL FILL PER FACE! Even if the complete mesh has a fill, but not every individual face has it's own fill, it doesn't validate as warp layer. Which makes sense for the render-priority and answers one of the questions I had. The alpha-value of the fill doesn't matter tho, even alpha of zero is fine. And even meshes with non-sharp corners still are valid warp layers, although it clearly doesn't make any sense to use those on meshes as edges under water are straight anyways.

So now I just draw quads an triangles in a Vector layer, fill those faces, and use that ordinary vector layer as a warp layer in an image layer! And after applying only then the layer icon of the vector layer switches to the mesh icon.

Never had to run any script for this, so no 'Triangulate' and no 'Quad fill', just a pure vector layer. Which makes me wonder why both of these scripts are still available in Moho 13.5.5. Are they still useful? And why and when we should need these?
As it seems like the quads and triangles I drew in a simplified mesh on a vector layer now are working just fine? (have to test it on the more complex shape tho)

Also this still doesn't explain why the quad fill script didn't work on a simple quad. Anybody?

And is there a script around which fills all FACES? So a script that not only works on quads, but also on triangles and a combination of the two? That would make much sense now I'd say?

[Víctor Paredes]

Hi. I'm sorry I haven't had the time to read the entire thread, but maybe this video can help:
https://youtu.be/s4ru1w_C4Ms?list=PLyny ... zpkWRb6OOK
Around 1:07:00 I show how to create and fill made of quads and triangles.
The tutorial is a bit obsolete and the audio quality is not great (we had an issue with OBS duplicating my microphone )
Personally, with the new automatic mesh I have never felt the need of creating complex quad+triangular meshes from zero.
In the case of Quads, I still use them a lot, but usually not for heads, but simpler objects in which I need to simulate some perspective.

Anyway, I hope it helps

[hayasidist]

A quick look at your video… you have not made two quads - you’ve made a hexagon with a line across the middle.

As a generalisation to address such problems- delete all the shapes you’ve created (probably unintentionally by having auto fill / stroke on) then run the fill mesh script again. That will fill tris and quads in any mixture.

[Greenlaw]

I haven't read the entire thread either, but in addition to Paul's explanation, I thought I should mention the following because it may not be obvious:

To delete all shapes for Fill Quad Mesh, use the Select All button before pressing Delete. This button is available only when you choose the Select Shape tool and it is faster than using the Select Shape tool to manually select all the shapes, especially when there are many shapes to delete (or Style as the case may be.) Otherwise, you will have to 'scrub' over every single shape.

[mmmaarten]

Hi. I'm sorry I haven't had the time to read the entire thread, but maybe this video can help:
{videolink}
Around 1:07:00 I show how to create and fill made of quads and triangles.
The tutorial is a bit obsolete and the audio quality is not great (we had an issue with OBS duplicating my microphone )

Hi Victor, thanks for your response. I want to take a look at the fragment at 1:07:00, but the video isn't even that long and on 1'07" I don't see you showing anything mesh related. Is this the right video?

Personally, with the new automatic mesh I have never felt the need of creating complex quad+triangular meshes from zero.
In the case of Quads, I still use them a lot, but usually not for heads, but simpler objects in which I need to simulate some perspective.
Anyway, I hope it helps

Not sure if you react to me saying 'faces', but just to be sure, because maybe we're having a misunderstanding; With 'faces' I meant the 3d modeling term 'faces' for geometry, so two vertices make up an edge and 3 or 4 vertices make up a face.

Good to hear that it's not needed that much to create one from scratch tho!! You guys did great work on that feature for sure, very impressive!

A quick look at your video… you have not made two quads - you’ve made a hexagon with a line across the middle.

Hi Hayasidist, thanks for your response, although this one confused me a lot;

Are you seriously saying these aren't quads in Moho? As in all 3d modeling software these would defintely count as pure quads, no matter in what order whey were drawn (and that's also what I would expect):

As a generalisation to address such problems- delete all the shapes you’ve created (probably unintentionally by having auto fill / stroke on) then run the fill mesh script again. That will fill tris and quads in any mixture.

Sorry, but I didn't even need to do that; I completely started from scratch and even drew only two quads. That's IMO as minimalist as can be.

Also I don't think I follow you; You mean by this that 'auto fill' and/or 'auto stroke' create extra shapes in Moho instead of changing a stroke and/or a fill property on an existing selected shape object? (As that would be really confusing and totally different to how other software work). Isn't a stroke and a fill just part of a style that is applied to a shape?

And are you saying that the 'Fill quads' script also fills triangles so accepts both? (Than why does it say 'quads' only in the name? So that's quite confusing too if that's the case)

[Greenlaw]

And are you saying that the 'Fill quads' script also fills triangles so accepts both? (Than why does it say 'quads' only in the name? So that's quite confusing too if that's the case)

Fill Quads fills what it can with quad shapes. Unlike Triangulate 2D Mesh, Fill Quads won't convert quad paths into triangle shapes. If a path is a triangle, then Fill Quads will make that into a triangle shape, which is better than no shape at all.

[Greenlaw]

Also I don't think I follow you; You mean by this that 'auto fill' and/or 'auto stroke' create extra shapes in Moho instead of changing a stroke and/or a fill property on an existing selected shape object? (As that would be really confusing and totally different to how other software work). Isn't a stroke and a fill just part of a style that is applied to a shape?

When you're creating a mesh for warping, it's not necessary to create shapes with Auto-fill and Auto-stroke enabled because Fill Quad Mesh and Triangulate 2D Mesh creates new shapes for you. The reason it's suggested to create curves without shapes is to eliminate the chance of errors from converting existing shapes. In other words, if the curves are empty, there is nothing to convert and these tools will make clean shapes for you.

When Fill Quad Mesh generate holes in my meshes, there are likely un-wielded points or some other weirdness in the curves. To fix this, I use Transform Point to move points around until the problem reveals itself. In my experience, the Fill Quad Mesh errors I see are always my fault.

There are practices I follow that help prevent such problems. Here are some tips...

• Create the mesh in stages and test it as you go. This can minimize the chances of making bad geometry for shape creation.
• Make a duplicate of 'good' meshes without the shapes as a backup. I find this process handy because I almost always need to regress and make changes/improvements after testing a mesh, especially when it's a complicated one. These extra 'backup' layers can be deleted when I'm done, but I may keep the latest version just in case.
• Try not to make the mesh more complicated than necessary. An overly dense mesh will deform too slowly with bones, and won't be much fun to animate with.
• When drawing the curves for a mesh, be sure to enable Sharp Corners (smooth corners are meaningless for mesh warping,) keep your points cleanly welded, and test the curves before they get too complicated. These kinds of errors are easier to fix along the way.
• Sometimes, instead of drawing a mesh from scratch, it's easier to create a mesh procedurally and then reshape that using the Magnet tool. Create shape is good for this and I recommend installing Hayasidist's HS_Shape for more useful meshes.
• Finally, if you're using Moho 13.5.5, consider using the new Create Smart Warp Layer command. The new method greatly simplifies mesh creation and works for most common mesh-warping situations. The manual methods are still useful to me but for special cases, like when I need a very specific mesh layout or when I need to use perspective warping.

Hope this helps.

[Víctor Paredes]

Sorry, it's minute 15 of the video! I don't know from where I got the other number

[hayasidist]

<snip>
Hi Hayasidist, thanks for your response, although this one confused me a lot;

Are you seriously saying these aren't quads in Moho? As in all 3d modeling software these would defintely count as pure quads, no matter in what order whey were drawn (and that's also what I would expect):

Sorry, but I didn't even need to do that; I completely started from scratch and even drew only two quads. That's IMO as minimalist as can be.

Also I don't think I follow you; You mean by this that 'auto fill' and/or 'auto stroke' create extra shapes in Moho instead of changing a stroke and/or a fill property on an existing selected shape object? (As that would be really confusing and totally different to how other software work). Isn't a stroke and a fill just part of a style that is applied to a shape?
<snip>

Let me be very clear on what it seems from your video the steps you took to produce what look as though they are two quads.

First it seems that you drew a closed path of 6 points. Moho interpreted that as a hexagon and created a shape based on that closed path of 6 points. So yes - order of actions is vital if you have auto stroke / fill on.

Next you drew a line connecting the mid points. This leaves the hexagon intact and adds a new edge to the mesh. This new edge isn’t part of any shape.

To make the six points and 7 edges into two quads you need to create two shapes from the relevant parts of the (now branched) path. If you want those quads to be usable in a warp mesh, you need to delete the hexagon shape (not the path / points / edges).

Another approach is to draw a quad with auto fill on, then draw the three sides of another quad to share one edge with the first.

Alternatively, as in my first reply, make sure auto fill / stroke is off and just create a path; or delete all the shapes (not the paths). Then run the fill mesh script. Which was called quad because that was the new feature… and yes I guess it could be renamed, but a rose by any other name….

[Daxel]

First it seems that you drew a closed path of 6 points. Moho interpreted that as a hexagon and created a shape based on that closed path of 6 points. So yes - order of actions is vital if you have auto stroke / fill on.

Yep shapes are key to understand Moho. It is a little bit ambiguous because people tend to think that any closed vector drawing is a shape, and we even have a draw shape tool that contributes to that confusion. But shapes are also the drawing units you create with the create shape tool. Each of the indivisible render objects that can have a stroke and or a fill.

I hate ambiguity but I reckon coming up with a perfect name for Moho shapes is quite a challenge. Drawing? object? unit? element? form? section?

[Greenlaw]

This is just my opinion: the terms Curves and Shapes are descriptive enough. Calling them anything else will muddy things up. New Moho users need to understand these two are related but completely different items.

Curves are made up of edges and points and can be used to give a Shape its form--kind of like a skeleton--but they have other uses in Moho besides supporting Shapes. For example, Curves can be used to deform other items or give items a path to follow. Also, Curves are not renderable.

Shapes are made up of Strokes and/or Fills, and they are the renderable skin that can be attached to the parts of a Curve. Sometimes I'll create a Shape that doesn't cover all the points and edges of a curve but those 'unused' points and edges remain to support and animate the shape. (This feature was more important before we got Bezier handles, and it's still useful because it's not always ideal to use Bezier points in deforming art.)

It's also important to understand that multiple shapes can share the same edges and points in a curve, or share only some of the same edges and points. This powerful feature can be used to draw artwork that can fold onto itself, or for creating stacked shapes (for animated shape order) or arbitrary Stroke segments that can be hidden and revealed.

Moho's vector drawing system is different from how it works in many other vector-based animation programs, but many of these differences allow Moho animators to do many things more easily, and a few that are impossible, in the other programs.

I'm always open to improvements of course, but after years of using Moho in television production, there are good reasons I generally prefer using Moho to other programs at my disposal.