ProRes 4444 with Alpha not working?

[arglborps]

If security is your highest worry, I think Windows ain't the platform for you ;-P

[synthsin75]

If security is your highest worry, I think Windows ain't the platform for you ;-P

It's not an issue with Windows. It's that Apple quit supporting QT on Windows, leaving QT player security vulnerabilities unaddressed. IOW, don't trust old software Apple quit updating.

[arglborps]

ffmpeg seems to be able to render in ProRes 4444:

http://www.authorityfx.com/prores-4444-on-windows-pc/

Also you could ask if ProRes RAW would do as well (much larger files, though).
At least there are official drivers for Windows from Apple for ProRes RAW:

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL2033?locale=en_US

[synthsin75]

Personally, I'm fine with PNG alpha in a MOV or AVI container (which works fine in other apps), of I need alpha video. Would be nice if ProRes were as versatile, but not a deal breaker by any means.

[arglborps]

Even a zipped folder with the PNGs should be fine as deliverable.

If whoever edits the stuff needs ProRes 4444, it literally takes seconds to turn the image sequence into a QT .mov file with QuickTime on the Mac.
Apple Motion can even import the image sequence directly as if it was a movie.

[chucky]

I wish I didn't have to use QT or any apple product, unfortunately ToonBoom (Storyboard) insists on it.

The myth that apple has superior security to windows has an almost cult-like persistence during this century.

[CandyCoated]

Hey thanks guys for your insights/input.

I know how to convert image sequences and I know it doesn't take terribly long. I do it many hours a day. With multiple projects.

It's a workflow thing sometimes. It's just that I was pleasantly surprised in seeing 4444 support had been added so when a client was asking for it, I tried doing it directly within MOHO because that is a newly added feature. In my opinion, if a feature is there, it needs to work properly.

I can convert from just about any format to just about any other format. I have software dripping out of my pores when I sweat. But that's not the point.. (My wife says I'm a software junkie - I think she's right)

My go to if I need to do a lot of conversion would be Media Encoder because I can setup batch rendering and a watch folder. Again, not the point. lol

ANYWAY... on to the point... sorry for being so wordy

I've been talking to support and here's where we are with it:

MOHO's 4444 implementation actually is creating an alpha. You can check it by reimporting your 4444 file back into MOHO and you'll see it's there. However, none of the Adobe products recognize this alpha channel. It lists the color depth as "trillions of colors" instead of "trillions of colors+", and all the import options for alphas are grayed out. That leads me to believe it's not a compliant ProRes 4444 file. Or something is borked with the way the alpha is being embedded.

I've never tried it on the Mac version - I do my editing/compositing on Mac, but do my animation work on Windows. So hearing that the alpha isn't very clean even on the Mac implementation of MOHO, tells me something is definitely not quite right.

I started this topic to see if others have had the same issue and it seems they (you) have. This is not a huge mountain to climb and we all have literally dozens of ways around it. However, if we can go straight to a deliverable because of a new (and welcome) feature, then why shouldn't we?

When you have 3 deadlines hitting in one day and have multiple sequences/files rendering in multiple different apps on multiple workstations, it's nice to find places to streamline the process. Whether that be in functionality, file sizes, number of files or whatever.

End of the day: not a big deal. I'm just pointing out that it's not working as expected, and hopefully it can be resolved.

The guys at Lost Marble are visionaries and Genius, so I'm sure they will do their best.

Thanks everyone for your input!

[CandyCoated]

Just thought I should follow-up with info from LM support:

"Thank you. We tested it on After Effects and, as you mentioned, the alpha channel appears
to be ignored there. But we then transferred that exact same file from Windows and moved
it to a Mac, and the alpha channel shows up in the following ways:

Preview it in the Finder with QuickLook: alpha channel exists
Import it into Keynote: alpha channel composites it on top of other elements
iMovie: it can be placed picture-in-picture on top of another movie

So Apple's software seems to recognize the alpha channel, and ProRes is an Apple-created
format. So the the ProRes format we export meets Apple's requirements for alpha channels
as Apple can read the alpha channel (from a file created on Windows) without any problem,
and as such it looks like Adobe's products might not be reading it properly reading the
alpha channel for some reason.

Our devs are now aware of this issue and will look into it further, but if the issue is
from Adobe's products not reading the file properly (when Apple products are able to
without a problem), then it might be something that Adobe would have to look into on their
end as well."

[Zortakka]

Did anything change for the better with Adobe in the new V14 Version?

[TheFugglys]

I've been struggling with this issue myself just now on a Mac, and it appears that Final Cut will not recognize the ProRes .mov format alpha channel as exported from Moho 14. Apple Motion also does not recognize the alpha channel.
The alpha channel exists in the file, however, as it works perfectly if I drag the .mov file into another app such as Cartoon Animator. (You can drag the .mov file in as a prop.)
If I then export a new ProRes 4444 file out of Cartoon Animator, the resulting video file has a perfect alpha channel that I can composite in Final Cut as expected.
I'm sure there are other workarounds, I just haven't tried any other apps to convert the file. Batch processing the files would be ideal, if anyone wants to suggest an app that will work perfectly for this.

UPDATE: If I export the render as a "MOV (PNG alpha-PCM)" file, the resulting file (which can also contain audio) can be dragged into Final Cut. The file will not preview in Finder on the desktop or play with QuickTime Player, and the desktop icon is a generic MOV Quicktime icon, but you can drag it right into Final Cut without a problem.

[arglborps]

Just did a test on my Mac and same issue here, the alpha channel is not recognized in Final Cut [10.6.8] running on macOS Ventura 13.5.2 (22G91) (intel) when exporting to "MOV (ProRes alpha-ALAC).

[Ronbo]

Running Moho Pro 14 on my iMac, Ventura 13.5.2.

1) I exported a simple animation as a ProRes Alpha ALAC and as PNG with Alpha.

2) Quicktime: PNG with Alpha would not even open, but ProRes with Alpha did.

3) Hitfilm Pro 14.3: Both versions opened with alpha.

4) DaVinci Resolve 18.6: Neither version displayed at all. No visual whatsoever.

5) FCP 10.6.8: PNG with Alpha worked, but ProRes shows no alpha.

6) iMovie 10.3.8: ProRes imports with alpha, but PNG won't even import and displays "Missing Plugin."

[Hoptoad]

Apple just released an OS update for various video formats, so maybe the problem is fixed for Mac users.

[NealF]

I've been using Moho Pro 12.5 for years and exporting as ProRes 422 and 4444 when I need alpha.
Always worked fine.

Now I've upgraded to the latest Mac OS, FCP and Moho Pro and the 4444 is not exporting alpha.
So the problem appears to not have been fixed yet.

Hope they get it solved soon. Looks like it's been broken for a few years.

[Jiyahana]

I typically output png sequence to get an alpha, but I have reason to need ProRes 4444 file. First I've tried it with 13.5.2 and it will not render with the alpha. I switched to .png sequence and the alpha works fine. Am I missing something? For now I'm going to png and will convert to ProRes with Alpha in After Effects.

But would be nice to skip that step.

Thanks!

You can try to check if there are any specific setting or configuration needed for rendering ProRes 4444 with alpha in your software for that you should check Apple ProRes 4444.