Are Manga Studio and Anime Studio the programs for me?

[slowtiger]

I really advise against using any software for storyboarding and character design. It's much too restrictive, and you'll most likely end up with what's easy to do within the software, not what's really in your mind.

[Genete]

If your mac is on OS X 10.6.8 or earlier, you can try Pencil ( http://www.pencil-animation.org ), it's open source and free to use. It's designed for frame-by-frame animation. It's not been updated for some time and may very well be a "dead" app, but it's still usable (if you're not using OS X 10.7 or higher).

Checkout the new community version of pencil:
http://www.pencil2d.org/
My two cents.
-G

[Michael221]

CartoonMike...thanks for the additional programs to test out. But you're right, right now I'm focused on becoming a good cartoonist on paper (going through a few intro books right now)...and plan on reading through the Animator's Survival Kit and The Illusion of Life to get the basics of animation down, before I start animating digitally. I actually plan on making an old fashioned flip book animation on paper first, just to see if I can.

SlowTiger (sorry for all the follow-up questions) are you saying that I should use TVPaint in lieu of ASP for animation? Researching TVPaint, it looks to be a 2D animation program that would rival ASP. Or are you saying use it as an additional bitmap based software for backgrounds, incorporating photos, and textures to complement ASP? Looks like TVPaint would also be a better program for drawing and coloring my characters...in lieu of drawing them in ASP? (or I could just draw them on paper, and then scan them in as a few posters suggested, to get less of that digital cartoony look.)

So if I have TVPaint...wow, do I really even need ASP? Or are you saying use them together harnessing both of their strengths? I have some money saved up to get the "powerful" programs...I just want to be smart about it.

[slowtiger]

I use both TVP and AS in combination, but that's just me. You'll do fine with just AS for a long time, but if you can afford so much money for a bitmap program, TVP would be a much better choice than Corel or whatever since it enables you to do frame-by-frame animation, in a distinct non-digital look.

[Michael221]

Well I've looked through a lot of cartoons made in just TVPaint, and I've been super impressed.

Can I ask why you use both? Why not just TVPaint? Slowtiger, In another forum you were actually a part of I read:

"TVP is really good for hand drawn animation, there's no software that comes even close.
ASP is really good at giving you free in-betweens (something that can take up an entire day in TVP can be done in a few minutes in ASP, this is also the other way around though)"

And, posted by you:

"In my workflow,
TVP is for animation,
Anime Studio is for camera stuff"

So what did you mean when you said that "ASP is for camera stuff?" And do you know what the other poster meant when he said that "ASP is really good at giving you free in-betweens?"

From both of those postings, it seems like TVPaint is best for hand drawn animation (more so than ASP.) So if I can afford it, why not just go with it from the get go? I'll do a trial run first of course. But yeah, right now, I just want to understand the WHY of these programs before I start testing them...just so I can really understand what it is I'm doing in those trial runs.

Honestly, it seems like I should start with TVPaint now...and then maybe incorporate ASP into my workflow at a later time, if I need it.

So here's what I'm thinking. Learn to draw and animate on TVPaint now (I can afford it)...then use ASP for "camera stuff" and "free in-betweens." I figure I'll more fully understand what "camera stuff" and "free in-betweens" means the more I use the programs.

Thanks again so much for all of the information. This has all been so incredibly useful!!!

[Ronbo]

Michael221, I just thought I'd mention that if you decide to get a tablet, there are various brands to choose from but Wacom is the standard and they come with bundled software, e.g. Photoshop Elements, Autodesk Sketchbook Express, and even Anime Studio Debut. Also, as a Wacom tablet owner you get a discount on Corel Painter if you decide to go that route.

http://www.wacom.com/products/pen-table ... uch-medium

My one comment about Painter is that, as amazing as the program is, it can be a bit overwhelming because it's so bloated with features, but Painter Lite would be simpler and of course more affordable.

[slowtiger]

I use both because it fits my workflow. The camera tool in TVP is awkward to use and not fast enough for me, and importing stuff into AS is just much faster. Also I do any style of animation, sometimes all in AS, sometimes all in TVP, but most times a mixture of both. AS and TVP are a perfect combination for me.

I also use Photoshop, and I have used Flash and AfterFX as well, not to mention some experience with Toonz and Animo 20 years ago. I use what fits the job and is fastest.

See my website for examples and some more descriptipon about my stuff: http://www.enigmation.de

[Michael221]

Ronbo, thanks for the tip about the Wacom tablet. Yeah, I was definitely going that route. Good to know I'll have the "lite" versions of photoshop, sketchbook, and anime studio to play around with when I do.

Slowtiger. I really liked your animations! I especially liked the "Me, myself, and the Others" cartoon in your show reel. That's more in line with what I'd like to create.

Ok, in the end...it's come down to either learning to draw/animate on ASP-9 or TVPaint as my main software tool. I'll do a test run of both (after I get a few more drawing basics down on paper)...and make my decision then. Although, just from research, it looks like TVPaint wins out over ASP.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's advice and tips. This has been an extremely informative posting for me!

~Michael

[neeters_guy]

I figure I'll more fully understand what ... "free in-betweens" means the more I use the programs.

The "free inbetweens" depends on whether you mean vector inbetweens or cutout movements. Anime Studo can tween vector shapes and lines, but can only move and distort raster images. Does this make sense? To state the obvious, you can't import a bitmap have it tween to another bitmap.

Interesting thread.

[Michael221]

Neeters-guy, haha, actually that doesn't make too much sense to me. BUT, I'll come back and re-read your post a few months from now after I've actually used the programs.

I really liked your desert island animation though. Super awesome. Cool to know that it's all drawn and animated in ASP. I'm assuming your good hygiene dragon was also drawn in ASP. Very cool.

[neeters_guy]

Neeters-guy, haha, actually that doesn't make too much sense to me. BUT, I'll come back and re-read your post a few months from now after I've actually used the programs.

I really liked your desert island animation though. Super awesome. Cool to know that it's all drawn and animated in ASP. I'm assuming your good hygiene dragon was also drawn in ASP. Very cool.

Thanks. To clarify, the character animation was done in ASP, the background was drawn with a paint program. Also, that dragon was just a scan of a simple marker drawing done on copy paper. As mentioned, use whatever tools or methods you need to get the job done the way YOU work. Since you're starting out, you really need to try everything until you figure it out.

[Michael221]

Neeters, ahhh gotchya. Characters drawn and animated in ASP. Background done in a paint program.

Yeah, well, that's great advice. There's a lot out there to try. ASP, Toon Boom, and Flash as the big dog animation programs everyone talks about. Then you've got the free 2D software like GIMP, Pencil, Synfig. and CrazyTalk. (and countless others).

Then you've got straight up drawing programs that people recommend to complement the animation programs like Photoshop and Sketchbook Pro. And you've got paint programs like Corel Painter and TV Paint. (although TV Paint is also 2D animation and drawing too).

And then you've got AE (composition and special effects), Final Cut (editing) and Logic (soundtracks).

Yup, it can get a little overwhelming thinking about trial running all of it. But you're right Neeters, as far as the drawing and animation programs are concerned, I need to try them all. Boy, this is going to take a while.

[wizaerd]

I'm probably a bit late to the discussion, but here are my opinions, which are totally my own.

I've illustrated for a long time, using traditional illustration applications, and I find drawing/illustrating in ASP frustrating and irritating. Learning how curves work in ASP, and how they differ from more traditional approaches doesn't help anybody except people who work solely in ASP. Jumping back and forth between different applications, because let's face it none of us truly use only 1 application, becomes a PITA. Instead of learning traditional methodologies, you now have to learn and remember an entirely different methodology. This in and of itself isn't a bad thing, learning different ways of doing things is usually a good thing, but if you work in ASP only sparingly, it can be challenging to get back into a proper mindset to use it's different tools and different approaches. Not to mention how tedious it can be in ASP to get the curves looking and behaving just right. If you're not using AutoFill or AutoStroke, it can also be real finicky when dealing with "shapes". If you are using AutoFill or AutoStroke, it can be real finicky in creating shapes with holes.

I also find the UI in ASP to be challenging because it doesn't conform to CUA standards for applications. Many may find it appealing because of it's non-standard approach, but I personally find it way too limiting. I also find that because of the UI, it's not nearly as intuitive to use on my Cintiq. Again, I imagine others will strongly disagree with me, but then again, these are merely my opinions. To make the best use of ASP, you must learn it's hotkeys. Trying to do anything strictly by using the mouse/stylus/pointer is sheer folly and will cause much frustration.

I've recently been playing with Manga Studio 5, and I really really like it. So far I like it better than Photoshop, but I honestly don't have enough experience with it to say it's better than anything else. Just that I like it, and enjoy using it.

[slowtiger]

Jumping back and forth between different applications, because let's face it none of us truly use only 1 application, becomes a PITA. Instead of learning traditional methodologies, you now have to learn and remember an entirely different methodology.

I suppose you can only draw with a pencil then and are at complete loss with a brush or pen? Because that's what your complaint boils down to: having to learn just another program. So what?

I estimate that I've used something like 200 different programs by now, in just 20 yrs of working with a computer, on 4 different operating systems. Big ones and small utilities, whatever, but I don't think I've ever complained about a new program. Next month I'm going to learn some Blender, go figure.

[InfoCentral]

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