THIS!
I didn't know what it was called before so everybody can scratch all my old threads. Its not storyboarding. Because even when you're story boarding you need to think how is this shot/scene gonna look! This is where i have the problems. When I did 3D machinima it was easy to move a camera around to where you find the shot looks the best and is interesting- This is why I like anime and hong kong action movies. I really love the way they choose their scenes and the way the move cameras to acheive certain visual looks and scene mood.
Instead of having two characters talking in a flat 2 profile shot, birds eyes, slight skewed shots.. etc etc REALLY make the scene and convey so much more than dialogue or animation alone conveys.
So the question is- how do I learn to do this in 2D animation??
It occured to me, i can use some 3D programs to take pictures and setup shots/scenes that way and then use the pics as references- although this kinda feels like cheating to me...
I dunno
Cinematography in 2D animation
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Cinematography in 2D animation
OMG make it stop!
Cheat as much as you like. What do you think others do? Disney used models of props and characters to help the animators draw it in perspective. If you need that, use it.
But we're animators, not life action directors. Our sets don't have to be consistent, they don't have to be built. We can draw whatever we like, without painstakingly contructing convincing perspectives - unless we want to.
I recommend you train thumbnailing. Plan your scenes in very small sketches, about 2 or 4 cm wide. Use a soft pencil. Only work with masses and shadows first, no details. See the film in your mind, then sketch it. Later you can work your sets/backgrounds from this.
There was a blogpost somewhere dealing with Spielberg's ability to keep his audience informed about the whereabouts in an action scene. He doesn't confuse, he establishes a sense of space and relations through blockig and cutting. Since I read that I'm highly disappointed by lots of action movies ... it's all confusion and no planning they're doing!
So think about your scene. Is it important to know where each actor is? Is there a direction, a target to be reached? In this case you may need to construct a set, maybe even with a floor plan. Or do you want to express something, is it just a feeling? In that case you can skip the construction part and only think in a sequence of shots with colour light/shadow, and direction. Both techniques are efficent, they just shouldn't get mixed.
But we're animators, not life action directors. Our sets don't have to be consistent, they don't have to be built. We can draw whatever we like, without painstakingly contructing convincing perspectives - unless we want to.
I recommend you train thumbnailing. Plan your scenes in very small sketches, about 2 or 4 cm wide. Use a soft pencil. Only work with masses and shadows first, no details. See the film in your mind, then sketch it. Later you can work your sets/backgrounds from this.
There was a blogpost somewhere dealing with Spielberg's ability to keep his audience informed about the whereabouts in an action scene. He doesn't confuse, he establishes a sense of space and relations through blockig and cutting. Since I read that I'm highly disappointed by lots of action movies ... it's all confusion and no planning they're doing!
So think about your scene. Is it important to know where each actor is? Is there a direction, a target to be reached? In this case you may need to construct a set, maybe even with a floor plan. Or do you want to express something, is it just a feeling? In that case you can skip the construction part and only think in a sequence of shots with colour light/shadow, and direction. Both techniques are efficent, they just shouldn't get mixed.
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hayasidist
- Posts: 3511
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:12 pm
- Location: Kent, England
I totally agree with ST here... I made a few suggestions about this subject (for a different video) in the other place http://www.kelleytown.com/forum/animato ... hichpage=2
how I do this is AS: if it's the same plane, but just different camera work (e.g. ECU of a mouth "cut into" LS of the actor talking) then I use the same AS file but with different camera --> one AS file = "many" different renders. (I maybe save the files as separate or maybe just write down the different camera data and render start/end frames.) If it's a different shot (e.g. overhead / side cut into the sequence) then it just gets drawn out as a totally separate AS project...
I also often render out a "big" frame (e.g. if my end medium is SD TV then I render out in, say, 2K) and use the compositor to pan, tilt and zoom around that large input canvas... you'll have about 3-4 times linear scale without loss of resolution.
then combine the two techniques...
most of the "external" motion of the spaceship in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHnPfl42jes is done in premiere not in AS... in AS I "just" do the flashing beacons and animate the pilots etc... even the motion of the ship landing / taking off is done in premiere (and I wish I could improve my character animation - but I'm still on the learning curve...)
how I do this is AS: if it's the same plane, but just different camera work (e.g. ECU of a mouth "cut into" LS of the actor talking) then I use the same AS file but with different camera --> one AS file = "many" different renders. (I maybe save the files as separate or maybe just write down the different camera data and render start/end frames.) If it's a different shot (e.g. overhead / side cut into the sequence) then it just gets drawn out as a totally separate AS project...
I also often render out a "big" frame (e.g. if my end medium is SD TV then I render out in, say, 2K) and use the compositor to pan, tilt and zoom around that large input canvas... you'll have about 3-4 times linear scale without loss of resolution.
then combine the two techniques...
most of the "external" motion of the spaceship in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHnPfl42jes is done in premiere not in AS... in AS I "just" do the flashing beacons and animate the pilots etc... even the motion of the ship landing / taking off is done in premiere (and I wish I could improve my character animation - but I'm still on the learning curve...)
Spielberg's background is in television where you have very little time to produce, so what you do in TV dramas is this: block the action in your scene with the actors, props, etc.
Then shoot the scene using the 3 basic shots in cinematography: Wide shot, medium shot, closeup. Do this over and over for each element of the scene, e.g., car drives down street, shoot a wide shot, a medium shot and a closeup of the same action. Do this for EACH action as many times and from as many angles as you have time to.
It may sound painstaking, and it is. But once you get the hang of it, there is no faster way to "shoot" a scene.
The real art of filmmaking is not in the shooting, it's in the editing, because filmmaking, unlike still photography, is about juxtaposition and action...what happens before each shot and what happens after each shot is what counts, not necessarily the shot itself.
I taught university level filmmaking for years and this is very oversimplified, but understanding the basics of what goes into a sequence will help you keep your production moving forward.
Then shoot the scene using the 3 basic shots in cinematography: Wide shot, medium shot, closeup. Do this over and over for each element of the scene, e.g., car drives down street, shoot a wide shot, a medium shot and a closeup of the same action. Do this for EACH action as many times and from as many angles as you have time to.
It may sound painstaking, and it is. But once you get the hang of it, there is no faster way to "shoot" a scene.
The real art of filmmaking is not in the shooting, it's in the editing, because filmmaking, unlike still photography, is about juxtaposition and action...what happens before each shot and what happens after each shot is what counts, not necessarily the shot itself.
I taught university level filmmaking for years and this is very oversimplified, but understanding the basics of what goes into a sequence will help you keep your production moving forward.
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InfoCentral
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 8:35 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
That is what Poser was originally developed for...artists. After it developed into a full blown 3D Animation program they still used to carry a cut version of it just for artists to set up a scene to draw. It was called Poser Figure Artist.
I just wrote a page or two in response to your desire to learn more about cinematography.
After reading it all through, I decided to not post it.
Instead, I want to issue a challenge to you.
Import a single image of an inanimate object (such as a paper clip or a pair of scissors) into an empty project. The challenge is as follows:
-You must create an animation using the object.
-The object must convey an emotion. You cannot tell us what the emotion is.
-The object can be the only thing in the animation. No words or other objects can exist in the project even if they don't move.
-The object must interact with the boundaries of the frame at least once.
-You may not use sounds or music.
-You must use a white background
-You can scale the image before you start animation, but cannot change the scale once animation has started
-The object cannot bend, warp, or transform. The object must retain its original shape at all times.
-You may move the object in 2D space and rotate the object.
-You may not move the camera.
This challenge may seem cryptic, but I have a specific reason for asking. If you complete the challenge, I'll tell you why I issued this challenge to you.
After reading it all through, I decided to not post it.
Instead, I want to issue a challenge to you.
Import a single image of an inanimate object (such as a paper clip or a pair of scissors) into an empty project. The challenge is as follows:
-You must create an animation using the object.
-The object must convey an emotion. You cannot tell us what the emotion is.
-The object can be the only thing in the animation. No words or other objects can exist in the project even if they don't move.
-The object must interact with the boundaries of the frame at least once.
-You may not use sounds or music.
-You must use a white background
-You can scale the image before you start animation, but cannot change the scale once animation has started
-The object cannot bend, warp, or transform. The object must retain its original shape at all times.
-You may move the object in 2D space and rotate the object.
-You may not move the camera.
This challenge may seem cryptic, but I have a specific reason for asking. If you complete the challenge, I'll tell you why I issued this challenge to you.
Architects would call this a bubble diagram. Usually a top view for drafting but the same principle for animation would apply.slowtiger wrote:
I recommend you train thumbnailing. Plan your scenes in very small sketches, about 2 or 4 cm wide. Use a soft pencil. Only work with masses and shadows first, no details. See the film in your mind, then sketch it. Later you can work your sets/backgrounds from this.
AS is only one program I use. Others are Poser, Vue, Carrara, Wings, Hexagon, Daz Studio, IPI and Animeeple. Wings, Daz, and Animeeple are free.
Their some cool motion captures that you could import into Daz and have nice reference. You can also just do some key-frame to key-frame poses in Animeeple to get an bvh to suite your needs.
And for 2d I starting to use Plastic Animation Paper 4, Also free.
Dale
Their some cool motion captures that you could import into Daz and have nice reference. You can also just do some key-frame to key-frame poses in Animeeple to get an bvh to suite your needs.
And for 2d I starting to use Plastic Animation Paper 4, Also free.
Dale
It's so interesting to see you post this, because I have been thinking about this lately, too. There are just some cool cinematic shots you can't do with 2d backgrounds/cameras. But I agree with Slowtiger, "cheat" all you want, but don't think of it as cheating. Just think of it as telling the story you want to tell and using whatever tools you need, to get the job done.
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funksmaname
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 11:31 am
- Location: New Zealand
This isn't true... you can't just draw one thing then create something else using camera tricks, but there's no limit to what is possible in 2D except your imagination. Thumbnailing is just storyboarding in miniature - so you aren't invested in the drawing and can replace it with another at no cost... it's not rocket science - if you start at the end of the process and spend a long time making a finished sequence you will be a lot more unlikely to scrap it if you decide it's not really the ideal angle or the result you want in hindsight.There are just some cool cinematic shots you can't do with 2d backgrounds/cameras
Try this:
Think of a scene. Scribble it small (thumbnail) in a series of shots - lets say 5 shots in a row.
Now on the next line change the angle of each shot.
on another line, do the same again, with different angles.
do this as many times as you like.
By the time you are struggling to think of new angles that didn't just appear, you will actually be making progress
now on the final row, pick 1 box from each column to represent your scene. were they all in your first row? were ANY of them in your first row? is the end result a lot more interesting than your first row?
now go storyboard - or skip that and go to animate, at least you have a much clearer idea of what you're trying to achieve!
Hey Funks,
Actually what I should've said is there are some shots you can't do without having to redraw the background a bunch of times at slightly different angles. For instance, if I want to do a long/high shot of a camera swooping down to street level as it zooms in. As far as I know, I couldn't do that in 2d because the perspective would change too much. I'd have to redraw the background in some fashion, right? Anyway, thanks for your input!
Actually what I should've said is there are some shots you can't do without having to redraw the background a bunch of times at slightly different angles. For instance, if I want to do a long/high shot of a camera swooping down to street level as it zooms in. As far as I know, I couldn't do that in 2d because the perspective would change too much. I'd have to redraw the background in some fashion, right? Anyway, thanks for your input!
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SvenFoster
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:50 am
- Location: stephen.foster.uk(skype)
Hey Yellow Card!! these forums are no place for useful information, take that somewhere else 
I like it a lot...thanks
I like it a lot...thanks
funksmaname wrote:...
Try this:
Think of a scene. Scribble it small (thumbnail) in a series of shots - lets say 5 shots in a row.
Now on the next line change the angle of each shot.
on another line, do the same again, with different angles.
do this as many times as you like.
By the time you are struggling to think of new angles that didn't just appear, you will actually be making progress
now on the final row, pick 1 box from each column to represent your scene. were they all in your first row? were ANY of them in your first row? is the end result a lot more interesting than your first row?
now go storyboard - or skip that and go to animate, at least you have a much clearer idea of what you're trying to achieve!
--Sven
What *if* the Hokey cokey *is* what its all about?
What *if* the Hokey cokey *is* what its all about?
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hayasidist
- Posts: 3511
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:12 pm
- Location: Kent, England
@Matsuemon: have you tried the "3d" bits of AS? (e.g. tutorial 5.8?) - perspective; rotate around x axis; use of z ...? I've used these for "simple" stuff with enough success for my needs; and I was about to carry out a bigger experiment ... so if you have tried and they've not done the business for you then I'll not bother with my try-outs...