can we the digital animators coment with the traditionlist

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jackass
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can we the digital animators coment with the traditionlist

Post by jackass »

I was scrounging around jonh k sight and found link to other website cartoon cave. I know this guy was talking about flash but I think it concerns us too since it aim at all digital animators. so here it is the article.

Over on Cartoon Brew there is this discussion currently going on debating the merits or lack thereof regarding the Flash animation software. I'll admit my bias against it is as one who finds the results thus far to be less than satisfying when compared to the best frame-by-frame pencil animation from the glorious past that I grew up on. In fact, I even find the limited animation style of Hanna-Barbera's 1960's era shows like "Yogi Bear" to be far more visually appealing due to the organic, hand-drawn nature of what inbetweens there are. I just posted the following comment that I know is going to result in a good trouncing over on their board. But I have taken great pains to explain my views, so I hope that even those of you who like using the program will at least try to understand where I am coming from on this rather contentious subject:

To all those who defend Flash and claim that “it’s just another tool” and can produce wonderful results in the hands of a skilled artist, I have this to say: An old Etch-a-Sketch is also “just another tool” as well, yet I could practise with it for months or years on end and never produce an image with the same control or visual appeal as I could with a pencil on paper. Like it or not, there are those of us traditionalists who see Flash for what it is: a “tool” for creating computerized cutouts using replacement parts, not fluid character animation.

Even the examples being cited here as superior, such as the dancing frog short and “Foster’s Home For Imaginary Friends”, may well be entertaining but they are not in any way comparable visually to the best of traditional hand-drawn classical animation. In “Fosters” for example, while I’ll grant you there may be a certain visual appeal in terms of graphic shapes, it is still just predetermined replaceable character parts being shifted around on screen. Any “Squash and Stretch” you see is not the real deal either, as it is achieved simply by distorting the image along its X or Y axis. When a character on “Fosters” turns his head from the front to the side, there are no inbetweens allowing for a gradual turn, just a *whoosh* sound as the head immediately changes views in a single frame. At best, there may be an attempt at contriving a 3/4 view inbetween by sliding the features gradually along the the front face cutout before replacing it altogether with the profile. Again, the Flash software is not conducive to subtle animation.

If these limitations are all perfectly fine with you folks, then go ahead and enjoy it as a medium. But please don’t try to convince the rest of us that, in the right hands, somebody could produce a film that rivals “Pinocchio” using Flash. I’ll admit, I’ve seen a precious few examples where an animator is drawing frame-by-frame directly into Flash, but even those results, while noble in the attempt, do not produce anything that has the sensitive rhythmic linework I associate with the best of pencil animation, due to the clunky line quality that I always think looks like a brush inked line that’s been hacked out on both sides with an Exacto knife! I’ve had my own brush inked line art ruined in a similar way by technicians who imported it into the “Illustrator” program, leaving it in a mangled mess, all in their quest for it to be a vectorized image. Sadly, everything has become a slave to the needs of the computer.

Yes, Flash may be “just another tool” in the eyes of some, but don’t kid yourselves regarding its inherent limitations. And to those who maintain that only a poor carpenter blames his tools, please don’t hand me a plane when I need to saw through a piece of lumber…

End of rant. :)

Or maybe not...

In case anybody I've been debating with stops in here for a look-see, I'm posting a clip each from the Flash-animated "Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends" in comparison with a clip from a 60's episode of the hand-drawn "The Flintstones" with my comments:
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combustioNanalysis
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Post by combustioNanalysis »

you are a genious sir!:wink:
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brucegulick
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Welll..

Post by brucegulick »

I spent most of my teenage years doing flipbook animations on guest check books in between bussing tables. As soon as I had access to a camcorder I tried to do stop motion animation with it..I studied everything I could and eventually gave up because the tools were so expensive and it was obvious that it took huge teams of people to do "professional" animation.

Oh, if only I'd had a tool like Anime Studio back then. My life would have taken a different path. $50! Cartoons! MADNESS!

So if it gets more kids interested great. If it gets more adults interested, great. If more people spend more time making art, great.

It's not about the finest of the fine, or the best of the best, or the difference between old techniques and new, it's about making art, and in that respect the computer has made these tools available to millions of people who would not otherwise have had them.

All new art forms go through an awkward phase, and I would suggest that digital animation is just now beginning to mature beyond that phase.

See:

Bendito Machine
Sita Sings the Blues
The Mysterious Geographic Explorations of Jasper Morello
Happy Tree Friends

My grandma told me once, don't say yuck yuck on someone else's yum yum. Do what you do and enjoy it, and don't dis the kids.

Also, why talk about Flash in an Anime Studio forum? The two applications are nothing alike.
My characters, props and backgrounds for AS6 at http://thecartoonboat.com/
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neeters_guy
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Re: Welll..

Post by neeters_guy »

brucegulick wrote:Also, why talk about Flash in an Anime Studio forum?
I agree. This thread belongs in Miscellaneous Chit Chat.

JA, seems to me your arguments criticizing Flash could be applied to Anime Studio as well (ie., lack of fbf suitability)? Is this your intent? :?:
jackass
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Post by jackass »

Maybe putting this here was be mistake I only put it here to motivate us AS users to show these guys that are animations are just as capable of subtleties that are in 2d. I seen other animators work on forum and then I saw the flash ones. To one who mention Sita sings the blues I saw it way back in 2009 last summer great movie. But would all movies mention look better if they made in AS. Would it have cost Nina less without doubt yes if she went with AS for production of the movie. Or is wrong for us to try, beat 2d at it's own game and we should use it for what it's good find the appeal in that. I can tell if it's As animation when I see it no likeness with traditional what so ever. I don't care it just means to me it AS stands out more when in the right hands.
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neeters_guy
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Post by neeters_guy »

jackass wrote:I only put it here to motivate us AS users to show these guys that are animations are just as capable of subtleties that are in 2d.
The best way to motivate and inspire is to put forth your own best efforts.
jackass wrote:To one who mention Sita sings the blues I saw it way back in 2009 last summer great movie.
Coincidentally, ex-forum member MKelley talks about this movie as inspiration for AS users here: Sita Sings the Blues

It's worth a quick read, but if you're too busy, he concludes: "There's nothing much in the work that can't be done in AS, and it makes me want to be sooooo much better."

Amen.
jackass
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Post by jackass »

Yes it's a great movie makes me want to put forth my best effort also. There new drawings in my blog. The scanning sucks but I'll put better scan pictures later. My mistake was being stupid enough to scan pictures on paper too big be scan and not drawing more in the middle. From now on it's notebook paper since it fits perfectly in my scanner. I plans for my Christmas money involving Preston Blair and a few other animation books.
barryem
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Post by barryem »

I can't help but agree that hand drawn animation is better. But so what? Much of the new animation I see is also very good in it's own way.

It's a different medium that calls for different talents.

I'm a long retired computer programmer and I wrote software in the days before the great popularity of Windows. I wrote in Dos and I worked on mini-computers with a command-line interface and before that I worked on mainframes for years that didn't even have screens.

The skills that I learned early on have ceased to be important to the world; many of the tecniques I spent years learning and for which I was in demand have now become no-no's that could get a programmer fired.

I miss those good old days. I loved the sorts of things I used to do. I loved the feeling of working close to the machine. That's all gone now and I lament it's passing. But look at what we can do with Windows!

The world keeps right on changing, and not always for the better, but that's the world we live in.

Barry
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AmigaMan
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Post by AmigaMan »

“Foster’s Home For Imaginary Friends”, may well be entertaining but they are not in any way comparable visually to the best of traditional hand-drawn classical animation.
To be entertaining is the most important thing. Also, it's not even trying to compete with "the best of traditional hand drawn animation". No TV show ever would be able to. If Flash or similar software had been around when Hanna-Barbera were making The Flintstones etc you can bet your life they'd have used it.

A lot of the limitations you point out is due to very restricting TV production budgets and not a fault with Flash or those that use it.
JCook
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Post by JCook »

Jackass,

Here's some Flash animation done by a master. Seems pretty fluid to me.

The Last of the Dashkin

Jack
jackass
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Post by jackass »

No I wasn't saying what written. That's an article from cartoon cave. I see if I can get the man to see the flash cartoon. I posted to see how you all would react this challenge. p.s That was great! Know anything about his background beside him being a 79 jackknife whatever that is. That what his new ground bio told me.
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neeters_guy
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Post by neeters_guy »

I thought I'd go ahead and provide links to the blogs that jackass is citing here.

Cartoon Cave blog here:
The Limitations Of Contemporary TV Animation.

John K's blog referenced in Cartoon Cave's thread:
Does Everybody Want To Be A Character Designer?
These are long discussions, but the gist of it seems not so much about Flash per se, but the all-too-common flat, angular style that animators have adopted in TV and film.
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