AM v15 is pretty dang rock solid. I use it all the time now that I have a good computer. I was able to import some wicked complex obj files as an experiment but it takes a long time and those files are practically useless to animate in AM anyway.... too many "points". Does that sound familar? The best thing is to model in AM... same as when we tell people here to draw characters in AS instead of importing Illustrator files. It's the same concept really. The same discussion. AM can't work well with polygon format and AS can't really work well with Illustrator or EPS format. Sad to say that is probably the one big thing that holds Animation Master back, its incompatibility with polygon formats.
-vern
New character with my head rig... well not so new.
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Well well, if Martin ever ear that you are in tons of trouble, I should know, I was in the middle of a huge polymic few years back in the AM community.
Needless to say AM is a great app, killer modeling and animation, rendering is getting there but Martin wants to keep it a tool for hobbiest, less and less professionals use it, which is sad but the way things are, still with v13 here, installed and running, I love it and hate it at the same time, cause it is so damn nice and at the same time so damn bad so I cant compete with it in 3D, story of my life!
GC
Needless to say AM is a great app, killer modeling and animation, rendering is getting there but Martin wants to keep it a tool for hobbiest, less and less professionals use it, which is sad but the way things are, still with v13 here, installed and running, I love it and hate it at the same time, cause it is so damn nice and at the same time so damn bad so I cant compete with it in 3D, story of my life!
GC
Yeah Vern, I have used AM quite a bit for professional work, I have always used patches. Indeed the object I imported was not too heavy on points and worked fine without the textures as they have done many times in the past.
I was merely testing out if it worked or not, which it didn't I'm sorry to say.
As imported the same model with the texture, just fine, but looks awful without baking shadows and perhaps some occlusion, could be great for sets and props.
GCharb said:
I was merely testing out if it worked or not, which it didn't I'm sorry to say.
As imported the same model with the texture, just fine, but looks awful without baking shadows and perhaps some occlusion, could be great for sets and props.
GCharb said:
It's a shame really with so much potential, AM just missed the boat, I gave up buying updates on v14 even though it came with a beautiful manual, because of instability and slow renders much like the one maya SHOULD come with.Martin wants to keep it a tool for hobbiest, less and less professionals use it,
What is the point
if it takes that many bones & too much time, why not just do the point animation it is easier and faster. 
Re: What is the point
Reusability. Once it's set up it can be be more easily animated than point motion. Imagine you animated a head at a specific angle for a specific scene. You want that same facial expression for another scene but at a different angle... you have to edit all the points. I just slide a bone. As I said before, the bone set up is basically done so I can reuse it over an over.khalifa wrote:if it takes that many bones & too much time, why not just do the point animation it is easier and faster.
Imagine I used point motion to get the same animation. All the time I spent on setting up the rig would instead be used to animate the points frame by frame. I can't "reuse" that effort.
If I spend that dedicated time up front I have a character that can be easily and quickly animated over and over again.
-vern
Dude, so why don't you copy and paste the point motion keys or create an action?
Sounds like the rigging would take forever sometimes , obviously well not quite forever <∞
EDIT: to clarify this was a direct response to Sir Heyvern's last post.
Sounds like the rigging would take forever sometimes , obviously well not quite forever <∞
EDIT: to clarify this was a direct response to Sir Heyvern's last post.
Last edited by chucky on Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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patricia3d
- Posts: 726
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You guys crack me up!
Seriously. How much time would it take to do a point motion head talking and turning in all those ways? How long? What if you wanted to change it later? Instead of looking up, look down etc?
So you think that point motion is quicker or easier? Let's imagine you are correct. It may well be faster or easier for some of you, but that point motion time is "cumulative". It multiplies for each change or tweak or new character you want to do. Saving all those actions. Creating new ones that you might need as you go along. All that time adds up.
PLUS! You CAN NOT use that point motion on a NEW character. You have to do all that point motion AGAIN for a different character with different point positions. with my rig, I could stick in a new head on that rig and the animation would still be there for the new head.
-------
Yes, the initial creation of the bones and rig set up was a massive undertaking... huge.... gigantic... like restoring a classic car
. But I did it only once. Now the car is finished and I can drive it around, change the oil, fill it with gas, wash it but I don't have to rebuild it from scratch each time I want to go for a spin. I can even have it painted a new color or put fins on it .
What I did was to sort of "gather up" all that time that would have been spent animating points and apply that time to the rig. But only once.
Now that rig is done. I never have to do it again. I can stick in A NEW FACE. Modify it a bit to fit the bones and BINGO. I can now move that head around by dragging one bone, make it talk by moving a few bones. Make it blink, wink, smile, frown, all by dragging just a few bones or applying an action. I can save bone actions and it's just one layer of bones. I never have to touch points.
This is how 3D programs work. You spend ages on the up front rig for your character so it is easy to animate.
Many of you use Poser. Do you think the smooth motion and bending of joints happen by magic? No of course not, someone created "hierarchies" of "bones" or joint linkages, with "morph targets" and polygons that move when a joint bends. Other wise all Poser would be is a character standing in the T position and you guys would have to move groups of polygons around by hand... ick. That basic character set up is then reused for new characters created for Poser so the "poses" you can buy will work for them.
I'm doing the same thing but with AS in 2D. Same thing.
I suppose on some level it's how much will that character be used. If it's only going to be used for one short segment and then discarded, maybe the big bone rig isn't needed. But if it is going to be used in a series or long format feature, having that ease of animation is great. But for me the length of use doesn't matter. I can stick nearly any character head in that rig and make it work and in a relatively short time.
p.s. Excuse me now. I'm going to gas up my classic car with the new fins and go for a spin.
-vern
Seriously. How much time would it take to do a point motion head talking and turning in all those ways? How long? What if you wanted to change it later? Instead of looking up, look down etc?
So you think that point motion is quicker or easier? Let's imagine you are correct. It may well be faster or easier for some of you, but that point motion time is "cumulative". It multiplies for each change or tweak or new character you want to do. Saving all those actions. Creating new ones that you might need as you go along. All that time adds up.
PLUS! You CAN NOT use that point motion on a NEW character. You have to do all that point motion AGAIN for a different character with different point positions. with my rig, I could stick in a new head on that rig and the animation would still be there for the new head.
-------
Yes, the initial creation of the bones and rig set up was a massive undertaking... huge.... gigantic... like restoring a classic car
. But I did it only once. Now the car is finished and I can drive it around, change the oil, fill it with gas, wash it but I don't have to rebuild it from scratch each time I want to go for a spin. I can even have it painted a new color or put fins on it .What I did was to sort of "gather up" all that time that would have been spent animating points and apply that time to the rig. But only once.
Now that rig is done. I never have to do it again. I can stick in A NEW FACE. Modify it a bit to fit the bones and BINGO. I can now move that head around by dragging one bone, make it talk by moving a few bones. Make it blink, wink, smile, frown, all by dragging just a few bones or applying an action. I can save bone actions and it's just one layer of bones. I never have to touch points.
This is how 3D programs work. You spend ages on the up front rig for your character so it is easy to animate.
Many of you use Poser. Do you think the smooth motion and bending of joints happen by magic? No of course not, someone created "hierarchies" of "bones" or joint linkages, with "morph targets" and polygons that move when a joint bends. Other wise all Poser would be is a character standing in the T position and you guys would have to move groups of polygons around by hand... ick. That basic character set up is then reused for new characters created for Poser so the "poses" you can buy will work for them.
I'm doing the same thing but with AS in 2D. Same thing.
I suppose on some level it's how much will that character be used. If it's only going to be used for one short segment and then discarded, maybe the big bone rig isn't needed. But if it is going to be used in a series or long format feature, having that ease of animation is great. But for me the length of use doesn't matter. I can stick nearly any character head in that rig and make it work and in a relatively short time.
p.s. Excuse me now. I'm going to gas up my classic car with the new fins and go for a spin.
-vern
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synthsin75
- Posts: 9973
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- Contact:
Don't worry Vern. A few of us do understand. I'm not quite so dedicated to go that far, but I definitely understand the need for more reusable animation. I'm guessing that most people don't realize that this kind of effort is just an extension of the basic AS philosophy. The whole idea of bones is to shortcut the effort needed to animate. It's just a matter of degree.
Vector tweening is a shortcut to frame-by-frame, and bones are a shortcut to vector motion. Just depends on how far you want to take it. Departing from traditional animation, software like AS has allowed us to separate construction from animation. (In traditional, both have to occur at the same time.) Just like constructing a vector character once, instead of for every frame, advanced rigging continues to add to that benefit. More work up front means less and less work for each frame.
Vector tweening is a shortcut to frame-by-frame, and bones are a shortcut to vector motion. Just depends on how far you want to take it. Departing from traditional animation, software like AS has allowed us to separate construction from animation. (In traditional, both have to occur at the same time.) Just like constructing a vector character once, instead of for every frame, advanced rigging continues to add to that benefit. More work up front means less and less work for each frame.
Totally agree Vern. Those rigs of yours are darn amazing. I used to be a plain point motion no script kinda guy but doing it the hard way really is time consuming unless you have a studio of great artists like Greykid.... When you are doing the same motions over and over again why redo work that can be automated.
I mean what the hell difference does it make using a mouse to tweek a point or using a bone to do it?????
AS has the tools to automate the process, so do we use them or pretend they are not there for old times sake?
D.K
I mean what the hell difference does it make using a mouse to tweek a point or using a bone to do it?????
AS has the tools to automate the process, so do we use them or pretend they are not there for old times sake?
D.K
Just to be clear on this subject...
I totally agree that frame by frame hand drawn animation by a talented animator blows the socks off of "automation" or the many shortcuts that people like me use because we either don't have those skills or don't have the patience or time to do that type of animation. To be honest I would not be able to "draw" animation the traditional way. I couldn't draw this character frame by frame on paper. I could draw the character of course but would struggle with the traditional method. At my age it would probably be very difficult to learn that skill. I don't know maybe I could learn it... but I'm not going to.
I understand the beauty and amazing look and feel of a "hand drawn" style. I can't do that. Don't have time to learn it. I am an artist but also very technically oriented. I can combine the "math" and "artisitc" sides of my brain and come up with solutions that please me and make it easier to do what I want to do... spend more time quickly animating rather than agonizing over each frame of an animation. I enjoy the technical aspects of AS as much as the artistic.
Creating those technically complex rigs and scripts to make them work are as much fun for me as creating the characters.
-vern
I totally agree that frame by frame hand drawn animation by a talented animator blows the socks off of "automation" or the many shortcuts that people like me use because we either don't have those skills or don't have the patience or time to do that type of animation. To be honest I would not be able to "draw" animation the traditional way. I couldn't draw this character frame by frame on paper. I could draw the character of course but would struggle with the traditional method. At my age it would probably be very difficult to learn that skill. I don't know maybe I could learn it... but I'm not going to.
I understand the beauty and amazing look and feel of a "hand drawn" style. I can't do that. Don't have time to learn it. I am an artist but also very technically oriented. I can combine the "math" and "artisitc" sides of my brain and come up with solutions that please me and make it easier to do what I want to do... spend more time quickly animating rather than agonizing over each frame of an animation. I enjoy the technical aspects of AS as much as the artistic.
Creating those technically complex rigs and scripts to make them work are as much fun for me as creating the characters.
-vern
227 bones just for the head, now think of how many bones we talking for the body 
Plus how much control do you have over what you animate when you use that. It sounds good and would be a good thing if it was easy and built in to the system but having 227 bones or more for every character sounds too much to me.
Plus how much control do you have over what you animate when you use that. It sounds good and would be a good thing if it was easy and built in to the system but having 227 bones or more for every character sounds too much to me.
I think in that case 3D animation might do the job.. but to do animation of any sort you need to know how things move and the basics of animation, there is no magic fix for that. I myself dont draw on paper, I learned to draw on tablet using flash and painter.. I am not saying I am any good, but I believe what can be done on paper can be done on computer, I feel very convertible with my tablet.I understand the beauty and amazing look and feel of a "hand drawn" style. I can't do that. Don't have time to learn it. I am an artist but also very technically oriented. I can combine the "math" and "artisitc" sides of my brain and come up with solutions that please me and make it easier to do what I want to do... spend more time quickly animating rather than agonizing over each frame of an animation. I enjoy the technical aspects of AS as much as the artistic.
I already have a body rig that doesn't need that many bones. Plus I am working on some scripts to reduce the bones in the face rig down to say... 50 or even less.
There is plenty of control. I can always go in and animate points if needed. In fact to save time I use what I call "point offset" on frame 1. I can offset points to get the face just right on frame 1. The points still move by the bones but I can do subtle adjustments.
As for using 3D... yeah... I still use 3D. But 3D has that dang extra dimension which makes things so much harder. 3D is a totally different creature. A different concept. It has it's own pluses and minuses. 2D attracts me because I can animate what I draw without "changing" it. 3D requires a lot of interpretation of your sketched character ideas.
My latest 3D done in Animation Master (Yes, I have two "masters" AS and AM). Spent the last month doing this for the Hash booth at Comic Con in NYC on saturday.
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?ac ... t&id=41941
-vern
There is plenty of control. I can always go in and animate points if needed. In fact to save time I use what I call "point offset" on frame 1. I can offset points to get the face just right on frame 1. The points still move by the bones but I can do subtle adjustments.
As for using 3D... yeah... I still use 3D. But 3D has that dang extra dimension which makes things so much harder. 3D is a totally different creature. A different concept. It has it's own pluses and minuses. 2D attracts me because I can animate what I draw without "changing" it. 3D requires a lot of interpretation of your sketched character ideas.
My latest 3D done in Animation Master (Yes, I have two "masters" AS and AM). Spent the last month doing this for the Hash booth at Comic Con in NYC on saturday.
http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?ac ... t&id=41941
-vern