vectors versus png
ive been creating images in xara lately and importing into a.s instead of creating vector shapes within a.s. and i must say that if you export a png from xara at a high enough resolution then the quality (to the eye) is pretty much the same
i feel its much quicker and the images you can create with xara tools are better than a.s
opinions?
vectors versus png?
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Re: vectors versus png?
The problem is that you can't do much with static bitmapped images, though, you can't twist and stretch them very well (except for wierd warping effects), or zoom in close, change perspective, etc. Great for doing cut out style animation, though.dreeko13 wrote:vectors versus png
ive been creating images in xara lately and importing into a.s instead of creating vector shapes within a.s. and i must say that if you export a png from xara at a high enough resolution then the quality (to the eye) is pretty much the same
i feel its much quicker and the images you can create with xara tools are better than a.s
opinions?
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com
Anime Studio Pro 8.1 : Intel i7 2600 3.4 GHz : 8GB RAM : Ubuntu Studio 11.04 : Cintiq 12wx
Anime Studio Pro 8.1 : Intel i7 2600 3.4 GHz : 8GB RAM : Ubuntu Studio 11.04 : Cintiq 12wx
I decided to create pngs and import them into AS for my current "project". For me this works fine. See http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5679. Main reason for this was that I did a previous project in which I used photo's and animated them using AS. I knew the workflow and decided to resuse this in my new animation.
As said in a previous post this works OK when doing cut out animation style. For "backgrounds", which are not animated, this works also fine.
Another remark from a previous post was about zooming in to much. Indeed, sometimes when you zoom in to much the pixels of the png become visible. The work around for me is to create another png with a resolution that better fits the the scene and use this in the zoomed setting.
In those situations where pure cut out style cannot be applied I create new pngs with additional poses of the character or prop and import this into AS.
One thing I noticed during the first steps of my project: I think that using large png files also comes with a lot of resouce comsumption (memory??). Rendering my animation in AS didn;t work anymore I had to use the command line rendering option (or rendering just small parts of the animation).
Gr,
Frank
As said in a previous post this works OK when doing cut out animation style. For "backgrounds", which are not animated, this works also fine.
Another remark from a previous post was about zooming in to much. Indeed, sometimes when you zoom in to much the pixels of the png become visible. The work around for me is to create another png with a resolution that better fits the the scene and use this in the zoomed setting.
In those situations where pure cut out style cannot be applied I create new pngs with additional poses of the character or prop and import this into AS.
One thing I noticed during the first steps of my project: I think that using large png files also comes with a lot of resouce comsumption (memory??). Rendering my animation in AS didn;t work anymore I had to use the command line rendering option (or rendering just small parts of the animation).
Gr,
Frank
Of course, you can also use both vectors and PNGs in the same object. E.g. vectors for the wavy outlines and PNGs for the fills.
You draw an outline in AS, export as PNG and use that as trace image in a drawing program (I like ArtRage 2) to create the fill. You then export as PNG, remove the white background in an image editor, save as PNG, and import that PNG into AS. Resize the image layer so, that it fits on the outline, put both in a bone layer, rig the image, etc.
I've done this as a test with a single drawing, but I can imagine that using multiple images can be done just as easily. You can now create animation in which the outlines and the fills are only loosely connected. I have done this with noisy outlines, but there are other methods you could use as well.
Here's my test animation on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLHXnHsnJSs
You draw an outline in AS, export as PNG and use that as trace image in a drawing program (I like ArtRage 2) to create the fill. You then export as PNG, remove the white background in an image editor, save as PNG, and import that PNG into AS. Resize the image layer so, that it fits on the outline, put both in a bone layer, rig the image, etc.
I've done this as a test with a single drawing, but I can imagine that using multiple images can be done just as easily. You can now create animation in which the outlines and the fills are only loosely connected. I have done this with noisy outlines, but there are other methods you could use as well.
Here's my test animation on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLHXnHsnJSs
Using images instead of vectors is fine if that is the "look" you desire.
At some point you may want more than that.
You could try importing vectors from other applications but as myself and many here have discovered there may be clean up needed... too many points... etc.
I keep trying to preach the same message when I hear about this issue. Make an extra effort to learn how AS vectors work and behave. You don't learn an application over night. Each program has a slightly different way of working.
Drawing applications like Xara are for... print... or static imagery. Programs like AS have to deal with motion... the behavior of the vectors are geared for that specifically. They use an entirely different type of curve than traditional drawing applications. The curve creation and movement must work well during motion. A static image doesn't have that constraint.
With enough practice you may find that AS drawing tools can do as well as any other drawing application. I have.
I did this Illustration ENTIRELY in AS (well... Moho).
http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/aol.jpg
This was used in print for a poster... but as I told my brother who contracted it... I could even animate it if I had to.
I LIKE the drawing tools in AS. I like the variable line widths... I like the simplicity and speed at which I can draw and modify the shapes.
I didn't always have this skill with AS. At first I HATED the drawing tools. It took some practice and patience to get to this point... a lot of cursing and swearing as well.
I started out importing AI drawings... and had the same issues with... excessive points... etc... so I learned to draw in AS... and no longer needed a second application.
I like AS drawing tools better than any other drawing application... AI... Freehand... etc.
At some point down the road... who knows... AS may have "better" bezier curve control... I look forward to that day... but I don't care as much about it right now.
Keep trying to learn the tools. Even if you continue using images or imported vectors... keep trying to learn the tools. A lot of the beauty and power of AS is lost if you use only images because you don't like the drawing tools.
Maybe I am an unusual case. Maybe those of us who like the tools in AS are just freaky weird... have no idea... It took me a few weeks of constant use to feel comfortable in AS.
-vern
At some point you may want more than that.
You could try importing vectors from other applications but as myself and many here have discovered there may be clean up needed... too many points... etc.
I keep trying to preach the same message when I hear about this issue. Make an extra effort to learn how AS vectors work and behave. You don't learn an application over night. Each program has a slightly different way of working.
Drawing applications like Xara are for... print... or static imagery. Programs like AS have to deal with motion... the behavior of the vectors are geared for that specifically. They use an entirely different type of curve than traditional drawing applications. The curve creation and movement must work well during motion. A static image doesn't have that constraint.
With enough practice you may find that AS drawing tools can do as well as any other drawing application. I have.
I did this Illustration ENTIRELY in AS (well... Moho).
http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/aol.jpg
This was used in print for a poster... but as I told my brother who contracted it... I could even animate it if I had to.
I LIKE the drawing tools in AS. I like the variable line widths... I like the simplicity and speed at which I can draw and modify the shapes.
I didn't always have this skill with AS. At first I HATED the drawing tools. It took some practice and patience to get to this point... a lot of cursing and swearing as well.
I started out importing AI drawings... and had the same issues with... excessive points... etc... so I learned to draw in AS... and no longer needed a second application.
I like AS drawing tools better than any other drawing application... AI... Freehand... etc.
At some point down the road... who knows... AS may have "better" bezier curve control... I look forward to that day... but I don't care as much about it right now.
Keep trying to learn the tools. Even if you continue using images or imported vectors... keep trying to learn the tools. A lot of the beauty and power of AS is lost if you use only images because you don't like the drawing tools.
Maybe I am an unusual case. Maybe those of us who like the tools in AS are just freaky weird... have no idea... It took me a few weeks of constant use to feel comfortable in AS.
-vern
heyvern wrote:
Keep trying to learn the tools. Even if you continue using images or imported vectors... keep trying to learn the tools. A lot of the beauty and power of AS is lost if you use only images because you don't like the drawing tools.
-vern
ok i'll give it a bash as i have to admit, i have been put off the tools due to my familiarity with other drawing packages
One of the ways I was forced to learn came from importing AI files.
As I was "cleaning up" some of these files... it started to dawn on my I could have done the work in a fraction of the time if I just drew it in AS (moho).
I was tracing some scanned artwork in photoshop in AI at the time and had only owned AS for a few days actually.
At first... importing AI and cleaning up was quicker. Later as I got better with AS... tracing the scans in AS was ten times faster... the ease and speed by direct comparison... was more than enough to convince me.
I can still picture the exact moment in my head when I ditched AI and started drawing exclusively in AS.
I was looking at all the extra points in an AI file I just imported, bunches of characters to go... this was my third or fourth... I just... started deleting entire shapes and redrawing them from scratch...
I recreated that AI file with less points and in shorter time than I originally did in AI.
AI files MUST be edited after import into AS. The points are never where you need them... around joints for good motion. Just as well to do it ONCE in AS, then to do it once in AI and "fix" in AS. I was wasting so much effort doing everything twice. No matter how familiar I was with the tools in AI... it was faster doing it in AS.
-vern
As I was "cleaning up" some of these files... it started to dawn on my I could have done the work in a fraction of the time if I just drew it in AS (moho).
I was tracing some scanned artwork in photoshop in AI at the time and had only owned AS for a few days actually.
At first... importing AI and cleaning up was quicker. Later as I got better with AS... tracing the scans in AS was ten times faster... the ease and speed by direct comparison... was more than enough to convince me.
I can still picture the exact moment in my head when I ditched AI and started drawing exclusively in AS.
I was looking at all the extra points in an AI file I just imported, bunches of characters to go... this was my third or fourth... I just... started deleting entire shapes and redrawing them from scratch...
I recreated that AI file with less points and in shorter time than I originally did in AI.
AI files MUST be edited after import into AS. The points are never where you need them... around joints for good motion. Just as well to do it ONCE in AS, then to do it once in AI and "fix" in AS. I was wasting so much effort doing everything twice. No matter how familiar I was with the tools in AI... it was faster doing it in AS.
-vern
Human beings are amazingly versatile organisms. Given exposure to certain ways of doing things for a couple of weeks, almost anything can "seem natural". This is more about you than the AS interface! The drawing tools suck -- you can get used to them, and integrate them into your modus operandi, but when you compare them with something even half decent, you can't hide how bad they are...
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?
Uh...
You mean... uh... my speed and comfort with AS is... an illusion? You mean... I don't really like it? It's all in my head? That's scary. I had no idea software could effect your emotions like that.
What is "half way decent" by the way? What is the official "scale" for comparison?
It is preference. Lots of people LOVE drawing in Flash. I don't. Should AS work like Flash? Should AS work like... Illustrator? Xara? CorelDraw?
I admit AS isn't "perfect"... but if you struggle endlessly trying to use something else... and it is "more work" and more trouble than doing it in AS... I don't know.
I am giving my personal experience and perspective. I agree that in the beginning using AS drawing tools take time to get familiar with.
I actually can work faster in AS than AI now that I am familiar with it. Because of this... I ENJOY the AS tools... NOW. It doesn't "seem natural"... it is natural.
As I said... in the first few weeks of use I would have agreed with you 100%. In the first few days/weeks of using Moho... I hated it. It was... weird... strange... it was totally alien to me.
Just like switching from Golive to Dreamweaver... or... going from Photoshop to the Gimp. When you switch to something new... is stinks!
Now... I use AI so infrequently... that is "weird" to me.
Now... I wish there was direct export to AI format from AS. I would like to save out AI format directly from AS for print work.
The tools in AS are different. They need some tweaking but they aren't that bad.
If every new user complains that the drawing tools "stink"... and I understand that feeling from personal experience... but also know from personal experience that this obstacle can be overcome... I like to share it... along with all the other opinions.
Just want to make sure there is a balance of opinions and experience.
-vern
You mean... uh... my speed and comfort with AS is... an illusion? You mean... I don't really like it? It's all in my head? That's scary. I had no idea software could effect your emotions like that.
What is "half way decent" by the way? What is the official "scale" for comparison?
It is preference. Lots of people LOVE drawing in Flash. I don't. Should AS work like Flash? Should AS work like... Illustrator? Xara? CorelDraw?
I admit AS isn't "perfect"... but if you struggle endlessly trying to use something else... and it is "more work" and more trouble than doing it in AS... I don't know.
I am giving my personal experience and perspective. I agree that in the beginning using AS drawing tools take time to get familiar with.
I actually can work faster in AS than AI now that I am familiar with it. Because of this... I ENJOY the AS tools... NOW. It doesn't "seem natural"... it is natural.
As I said... in the first few weeks of use I would have agreed with you 100%. In the first few days/weeks of using Moho... I hated it. It was... weird... strange... it was totally alien to me.
Just like switching from Golive to Dreamweaver... or... going from Photoshop to the Gimp. When you switch to something new... is stinks!
Now... I use AI so infrequently... that is "weird" to me.
Now... I wish there was direct export to AI format from AS. I would like to save out AI format directly from AS for print work.
The tools in AS are different. They need some tweaking but they aren't that bad.
If every new user complains that the drawing tools "stink"... and I understand that feeling from personal experience... but also know from personal experience that this obstacle can be overcome... I like to share it... along with all the other opinions.
Just want to make sure there is a balance of opinions and experience.
-vern
What newbies don't realize (I guess) is that drawing still images and drawing animated images is something completely different, and both disciplines need different kinds of specialized tools. Animators need much more control over their drawings and that control has to be simple, yet effective.
I've seen experience animators on this forum "getting" Moho/AS in one afternoon, and liked it very much, because it gives them something they so miss in other "animation" programs. What normally takes them days or weeks to do, they now can do within hours with AS. It is just THAT amazing.
Yes, you still need to know how to draw, and how to tell a good story well. If you miss these skills, even AS isn't going to help you create animation which most people are going to enjoy watching.
And then, PNG versus vectors. I have seen too little cutout animation done with AS, as if this isn't a viable method of animating. I remember those insanely funny animations created by Terry Gilliam and some of those cool music video animations in Lost Marble's Moho animation gallery. Too many people either seem to want 3D style animation or 2D cartoon animation. I like those mash ups with video and animated magazine clippings. But then, it just might be me, closing on 50.
I've seen experience animators on this forum "getting" Moho/AS in one afternoon, and liked it very much, because it gives them something they so miss in other "animation" programs. What normally takes them days or weeks to do, they now can do within hours with AS. It is just THAT amazing.
Yes, you still need to know how to draw, and how to tell a good story well. If you miss these skills, even AS isn't going to help you create animation which most people are going to enjoy watching.
And then, PNG versus vectors. I have seen too little cutout animation done with AS, as if this isn't a viable method of animating. I remember those insanely funny animations created by Terry Gilliam and some of those cool music video animations in Lost Marble's Moho animation gallery. Too many people either seem to want 3D style animation or 2D cartoon animation. I like those mash ups with video and animated magazine clippings. But then, it just might be me, closing on 50.
Laidies!, Ladies!.......calm down,jahnocli wrote:Really? Looks like you are trying to shout me down...My posting is just my opinion, too. Can't you respect that?heyvern wrote:Just want to make sure there is a balance of opinions and experience.
this is all getting a bit hostile!
ive even seen someone use the dreaded "newbie" term in this thread
we are only talking about "vectors versus pngs" remember