What it is with Moho...

General Moho topics.

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bellissimo
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Post by bellissimo »

interesting discussion...
I have a friend who is a production coordinator for an animation house that produces a very popular tv show in FLASH.
I thought he would go ape about moho...but no go.
Animating in flash is brutal!
I personally cant believe people take the time to make it jump through hoops. But they do.
When I first tripped across moho my jaw dropped. I wrote them a letter of elation and thank you. The basic functionality is so obvious it makes you wonder why no one(and I mean no one) else thought of it....bones on 2d images....! I use 3d apps and most of them are quite painful. Even stranger...Moho does things like warping images that photoshop only recently introduced. In theory its brilliant...in reality...its challenging.
Some programs (like moho) provide exeptional functionality...but strangley...they lack some of the most basic necessities.
Here's just a few.............
Animators need to be able to draw intuitivley and accurately.
Mohos drawing tool is neither.
The ability to reuse and manage symbols from a library is also a big deal when your working on complex productions.
While scenes are not essential...they are expected....and they certainly make it easier to concieve of and explore concepts.
Simple things like scaling a series of keyframes to adjust a sequence is a critical task....It should be as simple as selecting the keyframes...holding a modifier key and dragging(I know its possible with the menu command)
And yes...the interface is anything but sexy.
Having said that.........
Moho is one of the most brilliant and inspired pieces of creative software I've ever scene...It is loaded with incredible potential....but you have to wonder why nobody has ever heard of it?
I think if a few basic issues were adressed Moho could be the standard by which all other 2d animation programs ware judged.....And quite probably make some serious money for its creators.....I would love to see that happen!
And finally ...yes...with all due respect...the website looks cheesy...Give Moho the respect it deserves....there be gold in them there vectors!!

:)
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Manu
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Post by Manu »

heyvern wrote:I don't understand that one. What do you mean "Rigging and compositing"?
Every 2D animation-app I've worked with always made a clear divide between rigging and compositing: After Effects, Combustion, Animo, Cel-action...
At the moment in Moho, a rigged character is, as far as compositing is concerned, contained within the bone-layer. So if your rigged character wants to pick up a ball, shake hands with another character, sit in a car with one arm hanging out of the window... you suddenly have to drag a massive amount of extra layers inside the bone layer of your character.
I'm working on a television-serie at the moment done in 2D CG. If I look at the amount of changes of layer-ordering (=compositing) the animators have to cope with in some scenes. Honestly, there is no way you'd want to tackle that in Moho.
Before you can even contemplate animating the layer-ordering (often requested) you would first have to make the compositing of layers a separate event from the rigging.
heyvern wrote:Well... I think maybe at some point I must have downloaded a script for shape management. This allows me to select and order shapes. Works a treat.
Thanks for the tip. Can you remember where you got it from?
heyvern wrote:Well... as I have already said... masking is a tricky concept anyway. It takes some experience and experimentation to understand it in any application.
I'm fully aware of that. I'm just saying that the masking in Moho lacks the flexibility that others offer.
I wouldn't use Photoshop as a benchmark for masking, it's not a animation app.
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Manu
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Post by Manu »

bellissimo wrote:interesting discussion...
I have a friend who is a production coordinator for an animation house that produces a very popular tv show in FLASH.
I thought he would go ape about moho...but no go.
Animating in flash is brutal!
Flash has the simplicity of a hammer. It may only be a hammer, but it's a solid and well-proven one.
Moho is more like a small workbench. Not the most solid build one, but acceptable for occasional work.
If you have deadlines and budgets to deal with, you'd rather have the simple, solid tool.
By the way, when I say "solid", I'm not talking about stability of the software. Moho is exemplary in that sense.
jeff
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Post by jeff »

I agree that this is a very interesting discussion. Like Manu I am in London and when I was still in the animation business I tried to interest someone who was starting a series to take a serious look at Moho as their main animation tool. When I met the fellow later, he told me that they had decided to go for Flash. He had played with the demo and agreed that Moho had bones, particles, a proper camera....but there were three reasons they didn't plump for Moho and why he thought Moho hasn't yet been widely adopted in London:

I am not naming names here because the first reason was that a lot of the work was to be done by freelancers working at home and the sad fact is that everyone but everyone already had a copy of Flash which they had never got round to buying. Shameful I know, but that's how it is. They all had a copy of Flash; they had been told (if they had gone to animation school) that this was the standard industry 2D animation application, so they were already reasonably proficient in its use and all in all it was easier to use Flash in spite of the fact that the program is hopelessly clunky for professional animation compared to Moho.

The second reason - though this was just our agreed opinion not fact - is that the low price actually puts off some potential professional users. Whilst almost every major post production facility in London is used to the idea of open source ("free") software in the form of Linux, they expect to pay substantial sums for programs like Maya and XSI. (Interesting, by the way, to see what happens with post production software prices now that Shake has been reduced from its original pre-Apple price of 5,000 pounds sterling down to 329 for the Mac version). If Moho were open source, animation producers would probably go for it since they would be able to rip it apart and customise it; likewise, if it cost the same as Flash or Toon Boom etc., they would see it as a professional application, but I suspect that some professionals are put off because they assume it can't have any merit or technical support at that price.
This is why I was arguing recently in these forums that there should be a professional version of Moho costing more but offering more professional features plus proper technical support and feedback. I was roundly told off by people who expect to get everything for next to nothing.

Third reason, the technical issue that others here touched on; that is the difference in the freehand drawing tool between Flash and Moho. Even the most loyal Moho user will have to admit that Flash is vastly superior in just this one respect. Amazingly, Cartoon Network (London) who do a lot of in-house animation interstitials etc. were using Flash simply as an inking and painting tool - they would take hand drawn animation and trace over it using Flash because the brush tool is so smooth and responsive.
It's silly of course, because Moho has so many advantages, but if you're anything like me, one of the first things you will do when you encounter new graphics software before you have looked at any documentation is to take the drawing tool and have a quick scribble and this first impression, (I'm assuming you use a graphics tablet) though much improved recently, still leaves the advantage with Flash.

Jeff
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Squeakydave
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Post by Squeakydave »

Interesting thread.
I too am in London but nowadays not really part of the 'scene' , more of a spare bedroom kind of guy.

Why Flash rather than Moho? I think animators are comfortable drawing stuff. Moho is nearer cut-out animation (and even 3d) I think they feel that it distances them from the process. One animator I talked to Likes Flash because it is a pencil. You plug talent in to it and you can do anything! Moho on the other hand requires a more technical approach which many animators I know are just not comfortable with. (A few use one app and claim to know nothing about computers.)

I on the other hand have a love/hate relationship with Flash. I love the interactive stuff and the tiny file sizes but hate the animation tools. Most of my work nowadays (Website just updated - www-squeakypics.co.uk) ends up in Flash but I do nearly all of the animation in Moho. I just find it quicker and easier.

For me. Who does everything on a project, Moho is a godsend. I don't have to wast time drawing and painting inbetweens. The budgets I get don't allow me to hire people in to do that kind of boring stuff.
I enjoy that ability to auther a project on my own. Flash is just a digital way of doing what we did before with slightly fewer people. I guess in a studio situation that is comforting.
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Freakish Kid
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Post by Freakish Kid »

Having worked with a lot of animation software I find Moho to be the best. Don't know why, as soon as I saw it the programmed just clicked.

I think that any problem is solvable as long as you tackle it in a crative way (we being creatives, that shouldn't be a problem!)

I don't know about you guys but I love a job that challenges me! It wouldn't be worth my while if it was easy!!

Solving things creativley is the key! and to that end I figured out where Moho is best. In animating.

We produce all our character animation in Moho ( www.greykid.com - look in the features, comercials, projects and company services section of the portfolio). It simply is an animators dream! from there we export the png's into a compositing program and puch the final image out.

Using a combination of programmes works best for us, blending the best parts of each software to get the perfect result.

I have to agree that people are pretty much sold on the idea of Flash being industry standard, which is ok for us Moho users cause they don't know what they're missing!
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cribble
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Post by cribble »

maybe a higher price tag makes a piece of software more desirable... nothing beats a good bit of consumership.
--Scott
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CowsCanFly
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Re: What it is with Moho...

Post by CowsCanFly »

Manu wrote:You know, I've introduced quite a few people over time to Moho. But I have to say, it's been only with very limited success. Hence my question: What is it with Moho?

You know, you show them the bones, the particles, the 3D camera. All that for roughly 60 pounds sterling. And peoples jaws drop. And then nothing.

Could it be that the whole of Moho is less than the sum of the parts? Are those individual tools lost in an eccentric workflow? Or is it the lack of control many parts of Moho still suffer from?

I've used it for so long now, I've forgotten what it was like the first time around when I played with it. I seem to remember quite a bit of frustration, there was no instant satisfaction.

Any thoughts?
you are right, it happened to me and my friends too
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gochris
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Post by gochris »

This has been one of the best Moho threads ever.

Great avatar, Manu.

I think there are three reasons why Flash is the standard:

1. A few years ago, as you surfed you kept seeing that you needed the Flash player to play the cartoons. That was great marketing for Flash.

2. You can draw with it. Moho's never been as easy.

3. Ambitous animation producers hopped on Flash and hailed it as a "standard." And soon, like in a 24 month period, it was.

I love Moho. I am proud to say I bought version 1.0. Like many, I originally bought it thinking I'd be able to animate without having to draw. The funny thing is, the more I used it, the better my drawing got, and now I'm using Toonboom Studio as well as Moho.

TBS is way easier to animate in than Flash. And the software is cheaper too. And Toonboom makes other animation software, so they kind of know what they are doing. The interface is easy to use, whereas animating in Flash is a pain.

But of course with TBS you have to draw every frame. And I've found that for my main character in a scene, I don't mind animating frame by frame so much. And I've recently discovered TweenMaker, and am excited by the possibilities.

So now I use Moho when I don't have to turn a character around. Once I have my animation in Moho, I use the camera and particles, etc. It's just a terrific program. I'll always use it.

So I think people don't warm up to Moho because of the lack of pen and the rigging. I'd love to know what people who are frustrated with 3-D think of Moho. If Lost Marble had more money behind them, I think things for Moho would be different. We'll see.

In the meantime, I'm just happy that Mike did such a great job.

Chris
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Manu
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Post by Manu »

gochris wrote:Great avatar, Manu.
Thanks Chris. You can never have too much retro SF I'd say. :D

Here is another thought I had:
I used to do a lot of Flash animations and got really fed up with it. The quality of the jobs was generally very low and so was the pay. And for about a year I managed to avoid it altogether. Until I got offered a job as a Flash animator again. I felt like crying, having to use that primitive tool again with all its stupid workarounds.
But then I started animating in Flash, and it felt like riding an old bike. I got straight back into it. The matter of fact is, the animation came out fine and Flash did allow me to do my job. By the way, we often use Flash to do both cut-out and frame-by-frame animation
Moho is a different beast. The rigging is cumbersome, and it really "locks" your characters into a very 2D behaviour. Hence all these "How to do headturn"-threads that keep popping up in this forum.
If you're willing to design with those limitations in mind, fine. But when you're working with clients who want to see their money on-screen, you may not be able to design like that. And in many cases, I'm not the designer, I'm the animator who gets called in when the designs are already approved. Often, these designs are done by people who are designers first and foremost, not animators. Of course, they love doing their design in Flash. They're not going to be bowled over by geeky Moho.
And one more thing. Animating with bones is not all it's made up to be. It can be quite tricky to avoid everything to float.

Maybe it sounds like I'm slagging Moho off here, but I'm just trying to get the answer to the question that started this thread: "What is it with Moho..."
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Manu
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Post by Manu »

By the way, GreyKid Pictures. I can't see any animations on your website. Is it still under construction?
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel »

There are a number of reasons why producers are sitting on the fence with Moho. Some factors have been listed above. There are more.

Much of the indecision is not about the product but about the LM infrastructure - the lengthly absense did great damage to Moho, and unfortunately, there is no getting around that. The announcement that a large commercial partner was welcomed. But the lack of information since then is again causing concern. A favourable announcement could attract commercial clients and steady the nerves of existing ones - an update statement is overdue.

I made the point six months ago that future development of Moho should focus one the needs of the comercail studios. For the home/independant user, many new tools (such as network rendering and user define paths) might seem irrelevant but other features (reuseable librarys) most certainly would be appealing. Some of the posts mentioned in the thread above reflect this - layer control and matting are both studio critical. It would be advantagous to have a forum catagory for commercial developemnt, a place where studios can input industry-critical information into the development process: Studios are not interested in point rotation tools and wallpaper script; Batch renderering tools/network usage and global libraries most certainly are.

My personally thought is there should only be one version of Moho - I have been instudios where there are varying levels of program - lite, studio and complete (which in the case of Maya means incomplete as the Unlimited vesrion is complete). It causes confusion with producers and they hate it with a vengence.

As for the concept the "a high price makes it reassuring"to commercial clients is bunkum - Serif proved that with such products as Page Plus ... they kept the price low, offered good consolidation deals and marketed it agressively. They have done exceptionally well with that policy. Conversely, snimation software companies such as Cambridge which had a good product and a very high prices/limiting license policies, were shafted by the introduction of Flash. Very few series animation companies can afford to retain Animo in the current TV market.

When considering the commercial Moho uptake (or lack of it), LM should remember that producers are like sheep - they see what everyone else is using then do the same. If they find people walking away from something, they follow blindly. And producers talk to eash other, a lot. They meet up at industry jollies such as Annecy ... these meeting places can work in LM's favour as it is a central showcase for films made by exy software. Get a special or an award winning series made with Moho screened at Annecy and the sales will go through the roof. Lost Marbles could help in this respect - there have been various competition run on the site. If Lost Marbles sponsored a competition where the best film (voted by us) was sponsored through Annecy, Cartoon in the Bay or any other top animation festival, the producers would take note.

There are problems with Moho which affect sales. There are advantages which the marketing has not capitalised upon:
  • Bugs must be fixed. Later is not an option: If its broke, then time has to be spent repairing it before moving on. New features may be welcomed but problems that have not been resolved two years after being reported is simply a commercial turn-off.
  • Bugs must reported when fixed. The latest update came with the message saying "a number of bugs had been fixed". Sorry but this really is not good enough: The users need to know which ones ... only then do we know which ones to test: The problem may be fixed, it may not. Worse it might work on a MAC but not a PC. Without that information, how do I know if its been lookad at - If I test a new version and find something is still the same, how do I or LM know if the bug is closed? - LM may tick it off as fixed when it's still broke.
  • Currently, the Number 1 bug for fixing is the bitmap/vector rendering difference: When rendering, Moho pixel averages bitmaps, vectored layers don't - the result means that on track-out where the bitmap must scale, a vectored character shimmies (jitter registers) on the bitmap background. I recently had to output a straight track into a high-res sattelite image - Moho simple could not render a broadcast acceptable render AT ALL ... the SD image jittered around all over the place as if shot on an unregistered pin camera - put mildly, the producer was not pleased as we had extremely limited time scale in which to delivery the project (hours) - I completed all the digital rostrum moves with Combustion. Failures like that do permanent damage to a product. I'm still shocked by that render - if you cannot accomplish a stock camera move from 6 field 2N 2W to 12 Field centre. .................. If no other bug is fixed this year, that is the one which must be done.
  • Layer control and mastting are very big issues for commercial studios - at the present time, both are lacking (in layer masking exists but layer masking doesn't). I found some set-ups with two characters dancing around a maypole. If you are using software with layer ordering and layer-to-layer matting, the composite is fast and easy. With Moho, you cannot do those scenes without a huge amount of layer duplication and turning stuff on and off. This is an area for development of a commercially orientated Moho version.
  • Moho cannot import and export layers/grouped layer. Flash can. Commercial studios must reuse animation, its a commercial fact of life. If you can't, then a producer will call NEXT - he does not have the luxury of production budget to create new every scene. That means re-using material. You must be able to save out material to stock libraries.
  • The ease-in ease-out cushions are still not fixed despited being reported 2 years ago. It seriously affects the look of the animation. Human action is not linear nor smooth, its ease into or ease out ... you want to have wieght and comic timing in your work, then you must have the correct cushions.
  • Moho can render HD ready - its not marketed as such. Minor changes like having the 1920*1080 HD camera side in the default presets, can greatly affect sales - HD is the big buzz i nthe broadcast industry at present - LM have a HD (near) ready product and could be marketing as such (assuming hte above bug is fixed). But any operator who opens the camera preset currently won't find the HD format setting - Why isn't it there - itis a one line code change.
My personal hunch is the commercial guys will continue to sit on the fence until the next release. Our studio were very seriously worried by Mike's long absence - I know others were too.

But using the new co-partnership and key selling points such as HD, the product could make serious in roads into Flash sales; Flash works but its not ideal.

Moho is simply better, and if the above issues are addressed, its a potential market leader.

Rhoel

Both LM and Moho deserve a higher profile in the industry.
CowsCanFly
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Post by CowsCanFly »

woha harsh...
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Manu
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Post by Manu »

... but true

Especially the bit about producers being like sheep :D
Last edited by Manu on Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CowsCanFly
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Post by CowsCanFly »

yeah... but i still love it!!!
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