Cartoon Animator to Moho -- Step One: 13.5 Debut, more questions!

[wsterdan]

Before jumping feet first into Moho Pro 14.0 I thought I'd pick up a cheap (less than $30) copy of Moho Debut 13.5. While the trial version of 14 Pro will allow me more features to test, some of the tests involve importing other file formats, so I thought I'd try Debut first to see how the tools work and, more importantly, to see if I can actually use them (if I can't, it's probably not a reflection on Moho but on me, which has been my experience in the past). As well, I wanted to be able to render out movie files to help in analyzing the software.

First issue: I'm unable to import layered PhotoShop files. I should be able to import files with up to 10 layers, but no go, Moho either won't see the .psd file as importable or if it does, it comes in as one flattened layer. I've made sure there's no masks or anything; I've made a very simple, 2-layer .psd but no luck.

I exported a multi-layer PSD as multiple .png files (one per layer) and imported them perfectly, they came in in-place and with the correct z-depths layer so I now have a multi-layer star ship bridge where people can sit in front of their chairs and behind their consoles, and the doors open to a hallway leading out of the room. A bit more effort, but it does work.

My current plan is to focus on moving my Cartoon Animator characters over to Moho as quickly as possible to start using Moho for future animations in my series, so things will be rasterized images until I take the time to recreate the characters in Moho vectors for smoother animation.

With this goal in mind, I tried bringing in a character's head and features (one layer at a time) and it also worked well, with the eyes, ears, brows and mouth shapes all coming in sized and ready to go. I made a quickie switch layer out of the mouth shapes and applied some auto lip sync, and again, everything worked as it should, mostly. I imported the audio, applied the lip sync and the keyframes were added nicely, but I wasn't able to hear the audio play until I'd saved the file, quit Moho, then reopened Moho and the file and then I could (so manual key framing for lip sync is an option, just not my first choice). I generated a very quick test with two back-to-back audio clips just to see the mouth sync in action and to test multiple auto files (I'll need that once I have two or more people chatting):

https://sterdan.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... c-Test.mp4

I'm not able to set the eyes up properly as it's my understanding that I need the Pro version to use mask layers, so that's for later, when I purchase Pro.

As far as I can tell, Auto lip sync doesn't really pay attention to which mouth specific shapes are in my Mouth switch layer analyzing volume of audio rather than specific phonemes and using shapes appearing at the bottom of the switch layer first. Is there any way to maintain the "automatic" feature while helping it better understand the audio it's analyzing and choosing specific phonemes/visemes/mouth shapes? I'd like to do it directly in Moho if possible; I know Papagayo is an option if needed, but I'm open to any other suggestions.

Next up, creating two smart bones to turn the head left-to-right and up-and-down (with the accompanying movement/reshaping of the facial components), bringing in the body parts and assembling a full character, with rigging.

For rigging, has anyone used THE 2D RIGGING TOOLBOX 3.0 by Motion Gears (https://www.motiongears.net/products/2d-rigging-toolbox? would it help speed up my character rigging? Is it worth it?

So far, so good. Even though it's an older Debut version, I can see where someone could use it to do some pretty cool animations even with the restrictions. It helps cement that idea that I will be switching to Moho.

[sang820]

You are a very cautious person, but if you want good support for PSD, I suggest using version 13.55 or version 14. Lower versions may have some restrictions on the file name and path of PSD. And the 14th version has better support for video and audio. If you often need to integrate audio and video materials into Moho, then 14 is a good choice.

[wsterdan]

You are a very cautious person, but if you want good support for PSD, I suggest using version 13.55 or version 14. Lower versions may have some restrictions on the file name and path of PSD. And the 14th version has better support for video and audio. If you often need to integrate audio and video materials into Moho, then 14 is a good choice.

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not sure if anyone who knows me would agree with "cautious".

The Debut version I purchased is 13.5; I don't think there's a 13.55 update for Debut, but I'll keep doing my testing with this version a little longer; I definitely *will* be purchasing 14 Pro, without question, at some point before New Year's. So far the advertised features – with the detailed restrictions – of Debut are working almost perfectly (with the aforementioned .psd imports), so I'm a happy camper in that regard.

[sang820]

With this goal in mind, I tried bringing in a character's head and features (one layer at a time) and it also worked well, with the eyes, ears, brows and mouth shapes all coming in sized and ready to go. I made a quickie switch layer out of the mouth shapes and applied some auto lip sync, and again, everything worked as it should, mostly. I imported the audio, applied the lip sync and the keyframes were added nicely, but I wasn't able to hear the audio play until I'd saved the file, quit Moho, then reopened Moho and the file and then I could (so manual key framing for lip sync is an option, just not my first choice). I generated a very quick test with two back-to-back audio clips just to see the mouth sync in action and to test multiple auto files (I'll need that once I have two or more people chatting):

:shock:hhh, have a pleasant exploration

Ps: I have been manually creating mouth keyframes (switching layers), which requires a lot of work, but the results are good. For unimportant but lengthy conversations, copy and paste keyframes.

[Greenlaw]

Hi Walt!

Sorry, I haven't been able to get back to you in the other thread. Right now, I can give you some quick answers about PSD, though.

AFAIK, Debut only supports single-layer PSD. That is, it will flatten multi-layer PSD files.

Moho Pro supports multi-layered PSD and then some. When you import a layered PSD, you will be presented with three options:

• Indivually (layered)
• Composite (flattened)
• Select Layer (any layer(s), your choice)

When using layered PSD, giving the layers sensible names is critical. Moho identifies names in at least two different ways: first by the layer name, then by layer ID. This is important when you go back into Photoshop and merge, delete or add layers. After you save the file, Moho will sort out what's changed and update the layers. This systems works very well in Moho 13.5.5 and may have further improvements in Moho 14.

In Moho 12.5 and earlier, layered PSD could get a little sketchy because those versions used only layer ID to identify the layers. Back then, I preferred using the free Photoshop Export Layers To Files Fast script, an advanced layers-to-files exporter (much better than Adobe's native system) to export PNG layers from a PSD. This workflow avoids the many problems I could run into with layered PSD in these versions, but it's been mostly unnecessary since Moho 13.5.5 came out.

Feel free to ask further questions here, and I'll try to respond quickly.

[Greenlaw]

Another quick note: regarding Smart Bones, I think Debut only supports a single Smart Bone Action (which is 1 more than it used to support.) I think it also lacks any Bone Constraints. Debut can, however, read and use many advanced setups created in Pro, it just can't create new content with these features.

Sorry, I'm only able to skim your email right now. Will give this thread a more thorough read later today.

[wsterdan]

Sorry, I haven't been able to get back to you in the other thread. Right now, I can give you some quick answers about PSD, though.

AFAIK, Debut only supports single-layer PSD. That is, it will flatten multi-layer PSD files.

Thanks for the reply, it's turned out very helpful...

BINGO! I reviewed the feature differences between Moho 14 Debut and Pro and assumed – wrongly – that earlier versions maintained the same restriction in features for Debut, but they don't.

I tracked down a features set comparison for the 13.5 versions, and while Debut 14 supports the import of the first ten layers in a PhotoShop file, Debut 13.5 and earlier do not support PhotoShop import at all, even single layers.

Thanks for letting me know about the earlier versions not supporting layers. In tracking down the 13.5 feature comparison list, I found that the same is true for Smart bones, 14.0 Debut allows the creation of 2 smart bones, earlier versions do not.

...in Moho 12.5 and earlier, layered PSD could get a little sketchy because those versions used only layer ID to identify the layers. Back then, I preferred using the free Photoshop Export Layers To Files Fast script, an advanced layers-to-files exporter (much better than Adobe's native system) to export PNG layers from a PSD. This workflow avoids the many problems I could run into with layered PSD in these versions, but it's been mostly unnecessary since Moho 13.5.5 came out.

The last full version of PhotoShop I have is CS6.0 running on a 2012 iMac; since I've retired I cancelled my Adobe subscription and I'm currently using PhotoShop Elements 2022 and the Affinity suite. I did try running the built-in script in PhotoShop 6, but it churned for an hour or so without really getting anywhere so I killed it. Your suggestion reminded me to give Affinity a try and I'm able to easily convert the layers I want into slices and export those at .png files, so again, your help has saved me a ton of time.

Feel free to ask further questions here, and I'll try to respond quickly.

Thanks again, and no problem, never consider any questions I post here as urgent. I'm taking my time getting to know Moho Debut before purchasing Pro and not using it for any live projects for now.

[Greenlaw]

Glad to help, and thanks for posting corrections to my comments.

Some more PSD info:

Moho Pro is compatible with layered PSD exported from almost any program. Recently, I tried a layered PSD created with the free Krita program, and it worked fine.

Moho Pro will support the standard features of layered PSD, but might not support some advanced layer features of more recent releases of Photoshop. I just avoid those features when I know I'm creating the image for Moho, but sometimes I'll get files from the art department that has them. When I run into this situation, I just make a copy of the PSD and rasterize or merge the effects and layers in that region, and everything is fine.

When importing images to Moho 14, some users are finding that it may display the images at a lower res (usually half but sometimes quarter.) LM is aware of this, so hopefully a fix is coming. The issue is not catastrophic, though: the lower res appears only in the display preview and doesn't affect the final render quality.

[wsterdan]

Ps: I have been manually creating mouth keyframes (switching layers), which requires a lot of work, but the results are good. For unimportant but lengthy conversations, copy and paste keyframes.

The sample I posted uses 15 different mouth shapes with switch layers and auto lip sync, but they're raster; I will start rebuilding them as vector when I get a little further on in my tests as I can see from other samples how interpolating between vector shapes works very well for mouth shapes.

I'm still hoping to find an automated lip sync option that would recognize the words being spoken and utilize specific mouth shapes. I know I can manually key the frames if I have to or use Papagayo as well, but as lazy as I am, I'm a big fan of "auto".

[wsterdan]

Glad to help, and thanks for posting corrections to my comments.

Some more PSD info:

Moho Pro is compatible with layered PSD exported from almost any program. Recently, I tried a layered PSD created with the free Krita program, and it worked fine.

Moho Pro will support the standard features of layered PSD, but might not support some advanced layer features of more recent releases of Photoshop. I just avoid those features when I know I'm creating the image for Moho, but sometimes I'll get files from the art department that has them. When I run into this situation, I just make a copy of the PSD and rasterize or merge the effects and layers in that region, and everything is fine.

When importing images to Moho 14, some users are finding that it may display the images at a lower res (usually half but sometimes quarter.) LM is aware of this, so hopefully a fix is coming. The issue is not catastrophic, though: the lower res appears only in the display preview and doesn't affect the final render quality.

Thanks, that's good to know. I'm still super-pumped with regards to Moho, even though I'm only using 13.5 Debut so far. Any questions or concerns I had about PhotoShop layers I'm now marking "Done". Thanks for all the detailed info, very much appreciated.

[SimplSam]

I'm still hoping to find an automated lip sync option that would recognize the words being spoken and utilize specific mouth shapes. I know I can manually key the frames if I have to or use Papagayo as well, but as lazy as I am, I'm a big fan of "auto".

You should have a look at Rhubarb.It is a command line tool. But it is automatic and can give some good results - which can later be imported and tweaked within Moho.

https://github.com/DanielSWolf/rhubarb-lip-sync

[wsterdan]

I'm still hoping to find an automated lip sync option that would recognize the words being spoken and utilize specific mouth shapes. I know I can manually key the frames if I have to or use Papagayo as well, but as lazy as I am, I'm a big fan of "auto".

You should have a look at Rhubarb.It is a command line tool. But it is automatic and can give some good results - which can later be imported and tweaked within Moho.

https://github.com/DanielSWolf/rhubarb-lip-sync

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check into it. Are there any examples or tutorials showing how the various steps work to get the results working in Moho?

Walt Sterdan

[Greenlaw]

You should have a look at Rhubarb.It is a command line tool. But it is automatic and can give some good results - which can later be imported and tweaked within Moho.

Thanks for the tip! Will try to check it out over the weekend.

[SimplSam]

... Are there any examples or tutorials showing how the various steps work to get the results working in Moho?

For Moho a 'default' command (-f dat required) will use Hanna Barbera style: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, X notation (the expected Switch Layers in Moho need to be labelled as such).

rhubarb -f dat -o output.txt input.wav

You can also specify --datUsePrestonBlair to output Preston Blair style: AI, E, etc, FV, L, MBP, O, rest, WQ. It is exactly the same timings - just changed notation. Can also specify frame rate using --datFrameRate. And add helper input text using -d. The text option didn't really seem to help me!

rhubarb.exe -f dat --datUsePrestonBlair --datFrameRate 25 -d input.txt -o output.txt input.wav

Once you have the Output file, on the Switch Layer go into Layer Properties > Switch > Select audio sync source > Switch Data File, and the select your output file, then [OK/Apply]. You will have to import the Audio separately if you want to hear/see that.

[wsterdan]

... Are there any examples or tutorials showing how the various steps work to get the results working in Moho?

For Moho a 'default' command (-f dat required) will use Hanna Barbera style: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, X notation (the expected Switch Layers in Moho need to be labelled as such).

rhubarb -f dat -o output.txt input.wav

You can also specify --datUsePrestonBlair to output Preston Blair style: AI, E, etc, FV, L, MBP, O, rest, WQ. It is exactly the same timings - just changed notation. Can also specify frame rate using --datFrameRate. And add helper input text using -d. The text option didn't really seem to help me!

rhubarb.exe -f dat --datUsePrestonBlair --datFrameRate 25 -d input.txt -o output.txt input.wav

Once you have the Output file, on the Switch Layer go into Layer Properties > Switch > Select audio sync source > Switch Data File, and the select your output file, then [OK/Apply]. You will have to import the Audio separately if you want to hear/see that.

Fantastic, thanks very, very much for the detailed instructions, much appreciated. One of the only, very minor issues is the fact that it's an extra step or two as opposed to auto-lip syncing directly inside Moho, and that's only because I tend to use a lot of audio files. The 12-minute Cartoon Animator project I'm working on now has 133 audio clips to process. If the results for this work well, I should be able to write either an AppleScript droplet where I can just drag a folder of audio clips onto it and have it process batch process them, or something similar such as an Ant task or an Automator sequence.

Again, thanks very much for taking the time to document the process, it's a huge help.