Style Selection Problem!

[Daxel]

Why do we need to use a 'shape select'-tool if we just drawn the shape and Moho might expect us to change the style directly after that / knows what is selected? As that's IMO the most logical thing to do after drawing a shape. It might be made for some special workflow, but it's not my workflow and I wonder what that workflow might be and what benefits there are to it.

But again, that is exactly how it works. When you create a new shape, the shape is automatically selected and the style panel automatically changed to SHAPE mode, so you can directly edit the style of the shape without using the select shape tool or anything.

About the UI, I totally agree it is overly confusing for begginers for several reasons, the most important one being that the same word "styles" is used for two different things, the non-saved styles (the default one and the shape one) and the saved styles, forcing me to say "saved" each time to be clearer but Moho UI doesn't even do that.

If a style is a combination of the visual properties a shape can have, then saved styles should have their own word. As an example, in other softwares they use color for the color property but swatch for the saved colors, and that's way clearer.

Another issue is that the most important words don't stand up too much. The panel mode names are in ALL CAPS but should be bold too. The SHAPE one has a clear meaning, and the DEFAULT one too, but when the user sees STYLE is like reading nothing "aren't they all styles?" and the only word that gives a hint, the specific name of the saved style like "skin" doesn't stand out at all.

[Daxel]

Also I've just noticed. . .the checkmarks at the right of those colors. . .means those colors will not be influenced by any saved style applied.

Good catch!

Once I realized that checkboxes are always causing my Style problems, a huge orange neon "+1 to Moho Level" appeared over my head for three seconds.

Checkboxes should have not only icons (a lock could be ok) but also tooltips. Moho is already too complex for an artist to not make heavy use of tooltips.

Moho is the most capable rigging software in the world, and that complexity begs for more friendly helper features like tooltips, a good UI and even a warning system for common user problematic actions.

[mmmaarten]

But again, that is exactly how it works. When you create a new shape, the shape is automatically selected and the style panel automatically changed to SHAPE mode, so you can directly edit the style of the shape without using the select shape tool or anything.

Thanks for your understanding and trying to help. Really appreciated!
I am confused now. When I do that it doesn't work here as you described, so I must be missing something as it's not switching to SHAPE mode here. I've recorded a video for you to show it;

[Daxel]

Thanks for your understanding and trying to help. Really appreciated!
I am confused now. When I do that it doesn't work here as you described, so I must be missing something as it's not switching to SHAPE mode here. I've recorded a video for you to show it;

Yes, I can reproduce that behaviour.

When you use the Draw Shape tool with autofill on, it doesn't affect the style panel.

I was talking all the time about the Create Shape tool, not the Draw Shape tool, but it's interesting how again using the same word "shape" for two different things is problematic for a new user.

However, you raised a fair inconsistency, because even if you are not using the Create Shape tool, some of the other tools that create shapes automatically with autofill, like the Add Points tool and the Free Hand tool, do select the new shapes after creating them.

I think that all tools should behave the same way by default and an option to activate "auto-select new shapes" should be added to each tool or to a global setting for all with a menu button to toggle on and off.

[Hugging_Bear]

First, I want to thank everyone for their input!
I think, I understood the basic idea behind the style-panel now. But can anyone explain to me, why we have two style selection options and a greyed-out Thickness option?
https://youtu.be/zcY5c_5JaX8
PS: My apologies for my terrible English today (we have a heat-wave in Germany, which effects my thinking). Of course, I mean 'buttons' and not 'bottoms'

[Daxel]

First, I want to thank everyone for their input!
I think, I understood the basic idea behind the style-panel now. But can anyone explain to me, why we have two style selection options and a greyed-out Thickness option?
https://youtu.be/zcY5c_5JaX8
PS: My apologies for my terrible English today (we have a heat-wave in Germany, which effects my thinking). Of course, I mean 'buttons' and not 'bottoms'

The two styles is a wonderful feature.

Remember the checkboxes at the right of the colors or the width means force/override the property with this value.

And those checkboxes are on the saved styles too, like "skin". They are activated by default. But if you want to make a style that applies only the fill color, or only the stroke width, you can do it. Styles that only force stroke width are a common advanced technique we use over here, you name the style "cat stroke width" for example, and editing it is the best way to change the width of all the strokes of a character at once.

Now, you may want to have the "cat stroke width" style and also the "cat eyebrows" style both applied to the eyebrows of the cat, right? There you have it, two styles.

The thickness option is, according to the manual:

3D Conversion Thickness Field (20)
This option (20) is only available for the default style or selected shapes on vector layers that are using either the Extrude or Inflate options of the vector layer Layer Settings > 3D Options tab > 3D Conversion drop-down. This field displays the 3D thickness of the default style or selected shape. After clicking this field, you can type in or use the mouse wheel to adjust this value.

You have the manual here: https://lostmarble.net/Manuals/Moho%20U ... ual_HQ.pdf

It is the quicker way to solve "what is this" questions, I still use it frequently.

[Greenlaw]

Hi Hugging_Bear,

In case you missed it, here's an explanation for why there are two Style menus, posted earlier in this thread: https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewto ... 44#p212244

In a nutshell, think of the two menus as two layers of custom Styles that you can add over the base Style settings.

Regarding your statement about calling the Shape and Style panels 'Style' and 'Edit' (Style) instead, well, that's not exactly right. The difference between these two is that the Shape panel is for editing the selected shape's style and the Style panel is for editing the selected custom style.

You can tell when a shape is selected by the checkerboard pattern over the shape (beginner setting) or a red box (advanced setting). Tip: disable Checker Selection. This replaces the ugly checker pattern with a red box around the shape which doesn't block your ability to see the changes you make. I believe the checker pattern is meant to be a 'beginner' option but IMO, it makes it harder to tell what you're changing.

Also, from what I'm seeing in the video, you don't have a shape selected to edit. You MUST select the shape you wish to edit in order to edit it. To select a shape, you need to use the Select Shape tool or select it from the Shape menu in the Style window.

Regarding the disabled Width setting, again, this is because a shape with a Stroke isn't selected. When you select a shape that has a Stroke, the width setting should be available.

Anyway, the earlier post covers much of this in further detail, but feel free to ask more questions if that doesn't explain it clearly enough.

Hope this helps.

[Víctor Paredes]

Hi. I just recorded a video showing how styles work. Hopefully it will help to clarify some of the doubts about them:

[Greenlaw]

Suggestion: If you're starting out in Moho, I would get comfortable working with only the Shapes side of the Styles window first. This panel is for editing the currently selected shape or shapes. (Yes, you can edit the style for multiple selected shapes at once here.)

The Styles side of the Styles window can be considered an 'advanced' feature, as it's not at all necessary to use custom Styles in day-to-day use of Moho. In fact, I hardly use custom Styles myself except when I'm working on a bigger production with many characters and scenes, and changing situations. IMO, if your production only has a couple of characters and only a handful of scenes, applying custom Styles to your shapes is likely overkill.

For now, as a beginning user, I really think you should focus on learning how to use the Shapes side of the Styles window, and pretend the (custom) Styles side doesn't exist. Trying to learn both sides of the Styles window ('beginner' and 'advanced') at the same time without first fully understanding the first side is probably asking to be confused.

Hope this helps.

[Greenlaw]

Hi Victor,

I watched your video...nice one!

I love how you always keep your videos brief and focused. I started working on a video about using Styles, but the project grew bigger than I had time for it this weekend so I scrapped that and settled for the text-only posts.

I really need to learn from your example and keep my video projects 'bite-sized' so they actually get done!

[mmmaarten]

Hi. I just recorded a video showing how styles work. Hopefully it will help to clarify some of the doubts about them:

Nice! Thanks a lot for this. Just watched your video and although IMO the interface could be simplified/made more intuitive and less complicated (as discussed before in this thread, but also to show the actual resulted colors from the switches somewhere in the panel would be very welcome IMO), I really love the system this is build on and I get why this is useful. Very helpful video and at least to me clear now on how to use styles.

In relation to the current shape not being selected when using some drawing tools (while working with the Add Point tool), that's another thing; I'll create a feature request for that on the other forum to keep it separate from this thread.
(for future reference; it's here: https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36210)

[Hugging_Bear]

Hi. I just recorded a video showing how styles work. Hopefully it will help to clarify some of the doubts about them:

Hi Victor,
thanks for your video. I think I start to understand how shape- and style selection works. Well - I guess I simply have to learn it by doing it (over and over again). Like learning how to ride a bicycle
Another problem I'm struggling with is surface subtraction. I use this feature very seldom ... and every time I need to use it, I have to hunt down some tutorials because I have forgotten how it works

[Hugging_Bear]

Suggestion: If you're starting out in Moho, I would get comfortable working with only the Shapes side of the Styles window first. This panel is for editing the currently selected shape or shapes. (Yes, you can edit the style for multiple selected shapes at once here.)

The Styles side of the Styles window can be considered an 'advanced' feature, as it's not at all necessary to use custom Styles in day-to-day use of Moho. In fact, I hardly use custom Styles myself except when I'm working on a bigger production with many characters and scenes, and changing situations. IMO, if your production only has a couple of characters and only a handful of scenes, applying custom Styles to your shapes is likely overkill.

For now, as a beginning user, I really think you should focus on learning how to use the Shapes side of the Styles window, and pretend the (custom) Styles side doesn't exist. Trying to learn both sides of the Styles window ('beginner' and 'advanced') at the same time without first fully understanding the first side is probably asking to be confused.

Hope this helps.

You wrote 'For now, as a beginning user, I really think you should focus on learning how to use the Shapes side of the Styles window, and pretend the (custom) Styles side doesn't exist.'
I'm not sure I agree to that. First of all, I'm a beginner working with the styles feature - no question about it. But I wouldn't call me a beginner to Moho (I use it for more than five years but my characters were all bitmap and not vector characters).
For the task at hand - creating the Vagabond character. I knew I needed some layers which contain skin (face, nose, hands, neck, etc.) and I needed layers that contain clothes (jacket, hat, shoes, bag). When I know in advance that those layers all have the same style (i.e. the same fill-color and the same stroke color and width)... not using the style feature would mean additional work. Maybe I can create the same time saving effect with working with the shape feature alone ... but I don't see how, since shapes are individual and styles are general ... or am I mistaken here???

PS: Sorry - but I find your attitude quite patronizing!

[Greenlaw]

Hi Hugging_Bear,

But I wouldn't call me a beginner to Moho...

...PS: Sorry - but I find your attitude quite patronizing!

Agh! Please accept my apologies, you are absolutely right. I know you've been using Moho for quite some time, and I was being dumb and thoughtless when I wrote that.

I'll write more about Custom Styles later but I wanted to respond to this right away.

[Daxel]

PS: Sorry - but I find your attitude quite patronizing!

Agh! Please accept my apologies, you are absolutely right.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with both of you lol.

No one else have found Greenlaw's attitude patronizing and he has patiently helped everyone countless times so it must be you having a bad day, I guess.

He started by "If you are a begginer", in conditional, and it was an advice about how to learn the software, one thing at a time, not about production.

It's better to always assume good intention when someone tries to help you, because people tend to avoid helping users that may seem to get offended easily. Not Greenlaw, though.