I decided once and for all to make myself a collection of vector hands that I can reference forevermore in my projects. I went online and got a few googled collections of cartoon hand positions, and traced over them in Moho to make vector layers. Then I organized them on the screen in logical groups, i.e. wave, fist, counting, point, etc. Then I copied each one and reversed the points so I had left and right. And I organized those and named them all very carefully.
I ended with 122 vector layers of hands (61 positions, right and left, broken into a dozen or so gesture groups). All laid out in little grids like armies. I then made reference layers of those, and then took all the originals and put each group into a pile, all the orientations matching. (I made the references so I could come back to this file to see all of them laid out in armies it I ever needed that.)
My idea is when I'm setting up a character, I just have to import by reference from this Hand master file, and I can choose which types of gestures I'll need, and then when they are imported, they're already in groups that I can turn to switches and aligned.
So here's the part I'm not sure is a good idea, and I haven't gotten there yet. Feedback welcome: In setting up a character, each of these hand switch groups will get their own SBD. Then I will nest those groups into a master switch layer which will be controlled by a SBD that switches between the groups. The idea is that I can move the master bone between general gestures such as "point", "fist", "wave", etc, and then I can use the chosen gesture's bone to decide WHICH of my handful of options I have for that gesture.
Is this a good way to accomplish this?
Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
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Jkoseattle
- Posts: 433
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Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
Most of the time I'm doing music stuff. Check me out at http://www.jimofseattle.com/music.
Thing I did for work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgFYGqifLYw
Thing I did for work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgFYGqifLYw
Re: Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
Back when I was working on Boss Baby, I basically reused this setup for every character I rigged...
What I like to do is I'll make a hand rig that can curl fingers individually using a Smart Bone Dial (SBD) for each finger, and secondary SBDs would be used to operate all the finger controls at once to form a fist. This setup was repeated for each angle (palm, thumbSide, pinkieSide, and back) and another SBD was used to turn the hand. If you set this up correctly, you can hit most of your hand poses with smooth finger motions, and the different finger/hand poses always stay in sync as you turn the hand.
The animation for each finger Smart Bone Action is done completely without bones and uses only point animation. Then, in switch layer, I would add 'one-off' hand poses as I needed them. (Tip: add these to the top of the stack and keep the animated hands at the base. This is more efficient and easier to manage because the Switch layer works from bottom up, not top down.) Note that these 'extra' hands were not controllable with an SBD but these hands rarely need animation, and when they do, that's what the magnet tool is for.
Now the above is a fairly advanced setup. It looks great and is fun to animate with, but it can be a lot of work. Which is why I reused the setup as much as I could...it's too much trouble to create from scratch for every character. Plus, it can get complicated if other animators are creating new 'one-off' hand poses. What I did during Boss Baby was I asked each animator to let me know when they created a new hand pose, and if I thought it was worth adding to the master rig, I would do that.
Another method is to simply create all the drawings you think you need and drop them in a switch layer. From what I recall, that's all I did for the Puss In Boots rig seen in my Puss Interactive demo reel. To optimize this setup, place the poses for each hand view in in their own switch layers and then place these switch layer inside a master 'hand turn' switch layer. This way, you can animate the poses and the poses will stay in sync as you rotate the hand. If you need to add any 'one-offs', you can add them above these 'standard' poses as described above.
In an earlier time, I was doing development work for Harvey Girls Forever, and I tried dumping every possible hand pose I could think of in a single Switch layer and that was a mess to work with. That's when I switched to the more organized approach described above and that worked so much better.
Super tip: for Boss Baby and Harvey Girls Forever, I found it helpful to make a 'hands construction kit'. This was a separate vector artwork-only project file that had the palm and fingers in different poses and orientations but separated so I could easily construct new 'one-off' hands. When a new hand was ready, I would simply insert add it to the appropriate switch layer in the character rig.
I can write a little more about this topic but need to take off for a bit. Later!
What I like to do is I'll make a hand rig that can curl fingers individually using a Smart Bone Dial (SBD) for each finger, and secondary SBDs would be used to operate all the finger controls at once to form a fist. This setup was repeated for each angle (palm, thumbSide, pinkieSide, and back) and another SBD was used to turn the hand. If you set this up correctly, you can hit most of your hand poses with smooth finger motions, and the different finger/hand poses always stay in sync as you turn the hand.
The animation for each finger Smart Bone Action is done completely without bones and uses only point animation. Then, in switch layer, I would add 'one-off' hand poses as I needed them. (Tip: add these to the top of the stack and keep the animated hands at the base. This is more efficient and easier to manage because the Switch layer works from bottom up, not top down.) Note that these 'extra' hands were not controllable with an SBD but these hands rarely need animation, and when they do, that's what the magnet tool is for.
Now the above is a fairly advanced setup. It looks great and is fun to animate with, but it can be a lot of work. Which is why I reused the setup as much as I could...it's too much trouble to create from scratch for every character. Plus, it can get complicated if other animators are creating new 'one-off' hand poses. What I did during Boss Baby was I asked each animator to let me know when they created a new hand pose, and if I thought it was worth adding to the master rig, I would do that.
Another method is to simply create all the drawings you think you need and drop them in a switch layer. From what I recall, that's all I did for the Puss In Boots rig seen in my Puss Interactive demo reel. To optimize this setup, place the poses for each hand view in in their own switch layers and then place these switch layer inside a master 'hand turn' switch layer. This way, you can animate the poses and the poses will stay in sync as you rotate the hand. If you need to add any 'one-offs', you can add them above these 'standard' poses as described above.
In an earlier time, I was doing development work for Harvey Girls Forever, and I tried dumping every possible hand pose I could think of in a single Switch layer and that was a mess to work with. That's when I switched to the more organized approach described above and that worked so much better.
Super tip: for Boss Baby and Harvey Girls Forever, I found it helpful to make a 'hands construction kit'. This was a separate vector artwork-only project file that had the palm and fingers in different poses and orientations but separated so I could easily construct new 'one-off' hands. When a new hand was ready, I would simply insert add it to the appropriate switch layer in the character rig.
I can write a little more about this topic but need to take off for a bit. Later!
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2020 Edtion
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2020 Edtion
Re: Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
Personally, the more cut out projects i‘m doing the more i come to the conclusion, that simple replacements are often the best looking and also the fastest and easiest way to go. I‘d love to be able to just draw a new hand pose on the fly, like i do it in another popular software that shall not be named but it‘s just one more reason i‘m hoping for better drawing tools in future versions and some way to just easily add a switch layer drawing or whatever AFTER frame 0.
Re: Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
Yes, that's the idea behind my hand construction kit. Since all the static hand poses (as well as the animated ones,) are created from the same elements, there's consistency in design. With the kit, I can build a new hand from any angle or gesture in just a couple of minutes and add it to the stack.
If the hands are bitmap, then I just draw the new hand in my favorite paint program and import that to the Switch. For consistency, I make a similar kit in the paint program but the images there are more for reference than construction since I'm actually drawing new artwork each time.
I'm hoping for improved Freehand and Blob Brush too, but if you want to be able to draw inside the switch layer on a frame after 0......i‘m hoping for better drawing tools in future versions and some way to just easily add a switch layer drawing or whatever AFTER frame 0.
1. Disable 'Enable drawing tools only on frame 0' from Preferences>Tools
2. Create a new layer in your switch layer
3. Scrub to the frame where you want your new drawing and set the switch to that blank drawing
4. Draw in the layer.
As mentioned above, always add your new drawings to the top of the stack. This is easier because Moho sequences the layers from bottom up, and if you insert at the bottom or somewhere in-between, it can mess up a carefully structured SBD...especially if you've already been animating the project.
Hope that helps.
Update: I don't recommend leaving 'Enable drawing tools only on frame 0' disabled. If you forget this is disabled, it can really mess you up. I only turn this feature off when I need to and I immediately turn it back on again when I'm done drawing in the non-zero frame.
Of course, if you're drawing in an FBF layer, you can always draw in a frame after 0 regardless of this setting.
Last edited by Greenlaw on Wed Jan 18, 2023 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2020 Edtion
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2020 Edtion
Re: Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
Here's another tip:
One limitation with drawing inside a switch layer is that you can't see the other layers at the same time for visual reference. However, if you create an empty layer outside of the switch layer, you can drag all your switch layer drawings to it and see them all at once there. Tip within a tip: Enable Fade Unselected Layers, and all the other layers will be ghosted but the layer you're drawing in will be solid.
When you drag all the drawings back into the Switch, everything returns to normal. Since the keyframes are on the switch layer, any animation you've done with it will still be there.
Another way to do this is to use the third party script called Switch View. When you activate this tool, it creates a new layer inside the switch and moves all the layers inside. Clicking it again pulls the drawings out and deletes the empty layer. It's more or less the same trick but requires less work.
I use both methods...it depends on what I'm trying to do, how I feel at the moment, and the phase of the moon or something.
One limitation with drawing inside a switch layer is that you can't see the other layers at the same time for visual reference. However, if you create an empty layer outside of the switch layer, you can drag all your switch layer drawings to it and see them all at once there. Tip within a tip: Enable Fade Unselected Layers, and all the other layers will be ghosted but the layer you're drawing in will be solid.
When you drag all the drawings back into the Switch, everything returns to normal. Since the keyframes are on the switch layer, any animation you've done with it will still be there.
Another way to do this is to use the third party script called Switch View. When you activate this tool, it creates a new layer inside the switch and moves all the layers inside. Clicking it again pulls the drawings out and deletes the empty layer. It's more or less the same trick but requires less work.
I use both methods...it depends on what I'm trying to do, how I feel at the moment, and the phase of the moon or something.
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2020 Edtion
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2020 Edtion
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MrMiracle77
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:30 am
Re: Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
This video inspired me to try a rig for hands (not mine):
It's taken me a couple of tries (nine)to get to a hand that I really like; 3 fingers like a proper cartoon character. The fingers curl instead of tilting with digits. And there are two sets of fingers with layer visibility, because sometimes the pinky is in front, and sometimes it's in the back. I've also got a set of standard poses for quick animating: resting front/back, pointing front/back, clenched front/back, grasping front/back, holding object front/back. There's also a blank 'handle' layer that can be modified when the hand is holding something. I'll post video later once I'm home (if I remember).
I definitely get the argument for not nesting bone layers within bone layers, but being able to just throw a hand into a project is a real time-saver. And I find that if I color the layer in the layer panel, it makes it easier to find when I start animating, so not much time is lost.
It's taken me a couple of tries (nine)to get to a hand that I really like; 3 fingers like a proper cartoon character. The fingers curl instead of tilting with digits. And there are two sets of fingers with layer visibility, because sometimes the pinky is in front, and sometimes it's in the back. I've also got a set of standard poses for quick animating: resting front/back, pointing front/back, clenched front/back, grasping front/back, holding object front/back. There's also a blank 'handle' layer that can be modified when the hand is holding something. I'll post video later once I'm home (if I remember).
I definitely get the argument for not nesting bone layers within bone layers, but being able to just throw a hand into a project is a real time-saver. And I find that if I color the layer in the layer panel, it makes it easier to find when I start animating, so not much time is lost.
- Dave
(As Your GM)
(As Your GM)
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MrMiracle77
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Re: Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
The problem with these types of complex rigs, even if you do get them to work excellently, it's how hard they are to transfer to other rigs.
It all ends up being a little pointless when you find yourself tearing out your hair when the hand exists functionally only in isolation.
I first made complex hands more than ten years ago, the problem is the same with any type of rig that you want to use on many characters.
Transferring parts of rigs to other rigs has traditionally been impractical in practice.
This is I think my second most wanted improvement for Moho... transferable rig assets / modular rigs.
It all ends up being a little pointless when you find yourself tearing out your hair when the hand exists functionally only in isolation.
I first made complex hands more than ten years ago, the problem is the same with any type of rig that you want to use on many characters.
Transferring parts of rigs to other rigs has traditionally been impractical in practice.
This is I think my second most wanted improvement for Moho... transferable rig assets / modular rigs.
Re: Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
You're so right, and I meant to bring that up.
Back when I was on Boss, the hand rig I described could be transferred to other characters but it was a tricky process. Usually, we found it was easier to keep the rig and replace the artwork for a new character than it was to transfer the rig parts to another rig.
BTW, this script by Eugene addresses some of the issues I would run into...
MR Transform Rig Tool (Scrub to around 3:00.)
I haven't tried it with my old hand setup but I don't see why it wouldn't work. As if that wasn't enough, watching the entire video shows that Eugene's script does SOOOO much more! Highly recommended.
The other problem I had with the Boss hand rig was that I had designed it to work only with other baby characters. Or so I thought. Victor worked on a few episodes and he figured out how to repurpose my hand rigs for the parents by using Mesh Warp layers. I was super impressed when I saw that!
But I think Eugene's tool can help for modifying the rig for different characters too. I just haven't gotten around to testing that in my own puppets yet.
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2020 Edtion
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2020 Edtion
Re: Hands - Here's how I'm thinking of doing it
Yes Eugene's script is clearly awesome, unfortunately I haven't worked out how to get it working.
I tried it last week and get missing utility errors which don't make sense to me.
I wish you could just drag one rig into another and just check ' nest rigs' and have all the bones be referenced at the top bone layer. In a waldo like method
I tried it last week and get missing utility errors which don't make sense to me.
I wish you could just drag one rig into another and just check ' nest rigs' and have all the bones be referenced at the top bone layer. In a waldo like method