Another head turn question

[Jkoseattle]

I am repeatedly running into this problem: I work on my head turn smart bone action, moving layers and points as needed. Then I test it and notice something isn't quite right. So I go back in to edit the smart bone again, make my changes, go back to the timeline and try it out, and the new change I just made didn't "stick", it still moves the way I originally did it. Then I do a few other unrelated things, and come back and then it works the way I edited it. This has happened a couple times with different layers. It's not that the layer doesn't move at all, it's that it does move as I originally set it, not the way I re-set it. What am I missing?

[MrMiracle77]

I can't explain the 'why' of this, but testing on frame 1 instead of frame 0 will often display the actual desired change.

[Greenlaw]

Yeah, you want to be off of frame 0 and on a later frame when testing a rig. A number of features do not update reliably on frame 0 because this is the setup frame, not an animation frame.

Design Mode is a good way to deal with that. I typically use a later frame for testing like 12 or 24 so it's obvious to me that I'm not on frame 0, and using Design Mode lets me toggle between the two frames. (I put a Design Mode button in MQC just for this reason...having buttons for a lot of commands like this is really handy when you use a tablet.) Also make sure HIghlight Frame 0 is enabled in Preferences. This helps makes it clear when you're on or off of frame 0 too.

[Jkoseattle]

Hmm, I don't think that's it, as I see the same behavior whether I am testing on Frame 1 or 0. Here is a link to the project folder, if anyone has a chance to take a look. When in the timeline for Head Turn, all looks right. When testing the head turn smart bone in the main timeline, you can see this effect most obviously in his right eye (the eye on our left). It does not move correctly in the main timeline but does when in the Head Turn timeline.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

[slowtiger]

I've noticed sometimes there's a glitch in the playback, some parts of actions not showing, but show up OK in stepping forward frame by frame, and in final video render.

[Jkoseattle]

This is what I am seeing.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KXpwoE ... sp=sharing

[Víctor Paredes]

I found some things that could be affecting the way the smart bones are working.
- The "Head turn" action has keyframes on frame 1. Those are not necessary and can affect the animation. I recommend you to delete them.
- The HEAD group layer is bound to B10 (the head bone). This can also affect your animation, because that group is receiving, in a way, contradictory instructions: One is to stay rigid and only follow the movement of B10, but another one is to also follow the Head Turn smart bone more detailed movement.
I think that is leading to some unexpected results. My recommendation is to select the HEAD group layer and go to Bone -> 'Reset all bone rigging' and then bind the individual layers instead (it can be by binding points, using the 'Use selected bones for Flexi-Binding", for example).
- The 'Eyes Closed' vector layer is not moving in the 'Head Turn' action. That's why when the character turns and blinks, the eyes appear in the wrong position.

I hope this helps. It's a very nice well built character

[Jkoseattle]

Thanks for the help. I'm still not getting it. I have to move on, though. My character just isn't going to turn his head.

No matter what I do, my Head Turn bone behaves differently in the Action timeline than when testing the rig. I think from your comments that it has to do with nested bone layers, but the HEAD layer which you brought up is not a layer with any problems. I have eyes, for example, which need to bind to a bone so that the eyes can move, but also need to move when the head turns, and are also nested within a switch layer for blinking. It's too complicated and I'm in over my head.

So I give up. Disappointing, but I've already spent way too long trying to figure this out. Thanks for everyone's help.

[Jkoseattle]

OK, I can't give it up. I really need to understand this. Here are my specific points of confusion:

I have a Head layer, a vector which includes the head shape, ears, nose and hair.
I have an Eyes group layer. It is a Switch layer so that the character can blink. Within this switch is an Eyes Open bone group layer. The group contains a pupil and outline layers, and uses masking for the pupil. (Also an Eyes Closed layer which is a simple vector.)
The pupil layer is bound to pin bones which I use to move the pupils around.
Other layers for facial features, but this will do for this example.

Now... I want to tilt the head left and right. I create a bone for this, call it "Head tilt". Do I:
1. Put my Head and Eyes layers in one big group and bind that group to Head Tilt, or
2. Bind each individual vector to Head Tilt?

Eventually, I will want to again attempt a head turn, which will be a smart bone. Same question for that. Which nested layers bind where?

What's confusing is that the eyes (pupils) need to move independently from the head sometimes, but whenever I tilt the whole head, of course the eyes need to come with.

[Daxel]

I tried to debug your head turn smartbone but your project doesn't have it anymore. It's better if you share copies of your rig to demonstrate your problems instead of the original file you are working with.

I recomend to work with a single general character bone layer. It's simpler and you don't seem to need the complexity of nested bone layers for your rig. Nested bone layers, and group layer bindings aswell can give you problems with smartactions. It's safer to bind the vector layers directly instead of their parent group layer. I don't understand why Moho has that limitation but smart actions can be limited when one of those two (nested bone layers or group layer bindings) are used, and I think that is probably the source of most of your problems.

[MrMiracle77]

One thing I've learned from my faces is that smartbones have to be assigned before skeletal bones, especially when nested layers are involved. Once all the smartbones are charted out, layers can still be assigned to skeletal bones and move with the skeleton normally.

I'll give the file a proper look when I get home. There are easy solutions to eye/head movement that can be implemented, but they're harder to explain in text.

[Jkoseattle]

OK, thanks for the help. I've rigged up a different character today. From the last two suggestions I rigged up the head turn dial BEFORE the skeletal bones. That did indeed work. My problem now is in getting the pupils to work.

Pupils - in masking group with eye outline
This Masking group is in a Switch layer for blinking
The Switch layer is bound to the head bone

Moho doesn't let me bind the pupils to anything because they are in a group I assume. But the group is already bound to the head bone. So how do I bind the pupils to this pin bone so that she can turn her head AND move her eyes? When I tried making the switch group into a bone, I can make the pupils move, but that screws up the head turn.

Here it is. The woman is now rigged, not the waiter.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

[Greenlaw]

When you bind a group using the Bind Layer tool, the entire contents of the group are considered bound with the group. This is by design and it's a fast and easy way to do exactly that and only that.

When you need to bind the contents of the group individually/differently, do not bind the group. Instead bind the contents separately. This is easy to do. For example, if you have multiple items inside the group, you can select them all in the Layers Window and bind them at once. Then you can select bind the other items that need to be bound differently (like pupils.)

Hope this helps.

[Jkoseattle]

I see. So still not working. OK, so no group layers are bound to anything, only individual layers. I have a pin bone which parents to the head. The pupils are bound to this pin bone. Everything looks right.

But it doesn't let me move the pin bone at all.

[Greenlaw]

When I have a situation where a bone refuses to move, it turns out to be an error in one or more of my actions where I might have unintentionally keyframed things (probably a careless use of Freeze Pose or bumping a bone while everything was selected.) You might want to check there.