Moho Plans

[Kingrunner]

Not sure why but was denied a downgrade license to 12.5 since I am on windows and not mac. I responded with more information and hope it goes through.

I just want to see that my understanding of Moho development is as to why I wanted to downgrade to 12.5.

1. Stability (most important)
2. 13.5 will be 12.5 fixes and some new features that may or may not be apart of 13.
3. 13 features set may or may not be implemented back into Moho. This might result in file incompatibility in the future.

If my understanding is correct version 13 will be leapfroged in development which would make having 12.5 all the more compelling.

In any case I hope for the 13.5 development to goes well and in a few more weeks or so having version 12 might not be so important. I am glad to support Lost Marble.

-Royce

[Víctor Paredes]

Some more news about the beta:
As you know, we had to work over a previous version of the code in order to make it compatible with Big Sur and also to be able to work in an environment that allows us to work fast and add new features quicker.
To make this work, we had to remove the bitmap drawing feature from version 13 and bring the Actions window and the 3D options back to the way they worked before that version.
Our plan is to work in better drawing tools in the future, but we want to spend more time on developing them to be sure we can give you something powerful and useful.
We know this can be an issue for some users and we are sorry about it. It was a hard decision to make, but we really believe it’s the best for the future of Moho.

About 13.5, we are working hard to have everything ready soon. It has some big new features that make Moho more powerful than ever. I can’t say anything else for now, but I’m sure you will enjoy the new possibilities.

All the best,
Víctor and the Lost Marble team.

[Greenlaw]

If Moho 13.5 is stable and allows me to create cool new stuff more productively than before, that's all that matters. If it's also fun to use, even better!

Sending my best wishes your way guys!

[Spindleshadow]

Some more news about the beta:
As you know, we had to work over a previous version of the code in order to make it compatible with Big Sur and also to be able to work in an environment that allows us to work fast and add new features quicker.
To make this work, we had to remove the bitmap drawing feature from version 13 and bring the Actions window and the 3D options back to the way they worked before that version.
Our plan is to work on better drawing tools in the future, but we want to spend more time developing them to be sure we can give you something powerful and useful.
We know this can be an issue for some users and we are sorry about it. It was a hard decision to make, but we really believe it’s the best for the future of Moho.

About 13.5, we are working hard to have everything ready soon. It has some big new features that make Moho more powerful than ever. I can’t say anything else for now, but I’m sure you will enjoy the new possibilities.

All the best,
Víctor and the Lost Marble team.

Thanks for this update Victor, do what the team needs to do to make things stable and easier for your developers. I'm used to a constant updating process, Serif who develops Affinity runs a BETA in parallel with the constant update releases. It's made for some slow, but pleasant development.

[catwrestler]

Bittersweet indeed. Recently I've been moving much quicker in moho, just trying to move as quick as my imagination and that's when it gets crashy. I know it's no news to anybody but I usually am very meticulous. These days I just want to throw something together, and because of this the problems have been coming to light for me. So needless to say I am tired of the wait for 13.5!!! indeed I have done a ton of stuff that's incomplete using 13 so, that stuff won't work. on the other hand I can always save backwards to 12.5. And then open to 13.5. I'm on board and totally syked. Can't wait to get 13.5!! I've said it before but I'll say it again, it blows me away mojo has made it this far. Congratulations. And thanks again.

[davidcoughlan]

I'll just keep messing with the trial until something comes out.

This seems to be the "read between the lines" answer we're getting In an ideal world I'd buy 13 now, downgrade to 12.5 and get a jumpstart on learning the program while waiting for the update, but based on the comments here it seems like that path is closed off or unrecommended.

Really hoping one of the big new features involves MoCap!!!

[Greenlaw]

... I can always save backwards to 12.5. And then open to 13.5

Over a year ago, that's what I did with all of my Moho 13.0 projects: saved them as 12.5 projects. After it became clear that SM abandoned 13.0 development, I'm glad I hadn't spent anymore time with it.

Now that Moho is in active development again, and under management of the Lost Marble team no less, I'm confident that I'll be able to safely migrate my 12.5 projects to 13.5 and move forward.

[SimplSam]

To make this work, we had to remove the bitmap drawing feature from version 13 and bring the Actions window and the 3D options back to the way they worked before that version.

OK. I guess this is the point where I am allowed to safely say that I didn't really like the Bitmap tool in v13 anyway! It was of course an improvement over v12, but its features and usability did not compare that well to other apps for Painting (which I do poorly), Touching up or Bitmap editing.

The new 3D Objects had some potential. It imported/handled certain files/objects better, but with odd/crude lighting & shading and did not render objects in true 3D space (3D object occlusion limited to layer order).

v13 Actions had some good new features - with improved Grouping, Sorting, Tagging, Renaming etc. I still use v13 actions, but guardedly as many of us have been bitten by its bugs.

So all-in-all I am probably not going to miss those v13 features in v13.5, but definitely want to see them all returned/improved in future updates.

[Mikdog]

Some more news about the beta:
As you know, we had to work over a previous version of the code in order to make it compatible with Big Sur and also to be able to work in an environment that allows us to work fast and add new features quicker.
To make this work, we had to remove the bitmap drawing feature from version 13 and bring the Actions window and the 3D options back to the way they worked before that version.
Our plan is to work in better drawing tools in the future, but we want to spend more time on developing them to be sure we can give you something powerful and useful.
We know this can be an issue for some users and we are sorry about it. It was a hard decision to make, but we really believe it’s the best for the future of Moho.

About 13.5, we are working hard to have everything ready soon. It has some big new features that make Moho more powerful than ever. I can’t say anything else for now, but I’m sure you will enjoy the new possibilities.

All the best,
Víctor and the Lost Marble team.

Well, tbh, lack of decent fbf drawing tools is the only reason I moved from Moho to Toon Boom, so I applaud the idea of developing better drawing tools. I don't particularly like Toon Boom that much, but have learned it and been using it for pretty much everything for years. if the drawing tools in Moho get up to par, that would be huge as I was creating all content in Photoshop and importing it into Moho. To be able to create the content in Moho *and* animate it there would be super sweet.

I dig Moho so much, the animation tools are so fun, the engine's so responsive, the whole package (before it got pretty bloated, I think it was like 10mb) was so simple and easy to understand, and pretty much all my most successful works have been made in Moho. So, yeh, would be great to work more in it.

That's my 2 cents

[rocken]

As a feature update, adding a speed graph or something like Keyframe Wingman (AE Script) would be super handy. For Drawing tools, I would love to see a pen tool that works just like what we have in Illustrator with a display of your next line. I know this could be asking for a lot.

[Greenlaw]

Well, tbh, lack of decent fbf drawing tools is the only reason I moved from Moho to Toon Boom, so I applaud the idea of developing better drawing tools. I don't particularly like Toon Boom that much, but have learned it and been using it for pretty much everything for years.

I know what you mean.

I don't use Moho to draw FBF at all because the freehand (vector) tools are too frustrating to draw with. I still use Moho for nearly all my 2D puppet animation at work and at home, but for FBF I use TB at work and TV Paint at home. (FBF is fine in these programs, but I'm not a fan of TB's puppet rigging tools.)

I would first like to see Freehand and Blob Brush improved or replaced because I like my Moho FBF to integrate perfectly with the vector-based (but non-freehand drawn) Moho puppet animations. If this happened, I would drop using the other programs to create FBF for Moho. But I would also like to see better paint tools re-introduced right after, since we work with a fair amount of Photoshop art in Moho too.

[jayfaker]

Bitmap drawing tools are nice, I guess, but it never interested me much since you can do all that stuff in photoshop way better. Honestly I think Moho should stay focused on what it does best, which is 2D vector puppeting tools. It would be great to have some good vector drawing tools, and fast, easy ways to swap out pieces of the puppet for special-drawn frames. That would keep the focus on the killer app, 2D vector rigs.

In the same vein, 3D tools would be nice as 2D reference assist or for hard body objects, but I think those tools should never outshine the 2D vector rigs. That is where Moho sets itself apart from other apps.

[cgrotke]

I'd also like to see FBF improved so that:

1. it would be simple to draw on a frame*, then add a blank frame with onionskin and draw on that, and so on.

2. It would be simple to do the above in combination with the rigged characters' animation.

The key part is "simple" - not just "possible"...

* with the imagined improved drawing tools, of course. : )

The more this thread and discussion goes on, the more it makes me think that a future version might do well if it had different "spaces" and tools for different work - a drawing and character rigging space, and audio space, a few animation spaces (traditional, 2-D rigged, live-action combo...). I use Dragonframe for stop motion and like that I clearly can tell when I'm doing set-up, vs. animating, and so on.

One of the more difficult steps in first learning Moho, I think, is that it appears as a single work space but the tools can seem to come and go, which takes some getting used to.

[Greenlaw]

Hi cgrotke,

1. it would be simple to draw on a frame*, then add a blank frame with onionskin and draw on that, and so on.

Moho 12.5 already does that: Create an Frame By Frame layer and set onion skin to read the previous frame (or second previous if you're animating on 2's or whatever.) When you draw on the next empty frame, the previous drawing will be visible as an onion skin image. You can even set a range of onion skins for FBF, past and future. Hope this helps.

2. It would be simple to do the above in combination with the rigged characters' animation.

Yes, exactly! This is how I've used the current Moho FBF system in production, to create bridge animations where I needed poses and short animations between rig poses that were not possible with the rig alone. It's an almost ideal system except for the problems I kept encountering with the Freehand and Blob Brush tools. In a nutshell, I spent way too much time correcting errors generated by these tools. If these tools worked as they should, this would be an excellent workflow for Moho. Looking forward to trying this again someday when the freehand tools are improved.

One of the more difficult steps in first learning Moho, I think, is that it appears as a single work space but the tools can seem to come and go, which takes some getting used to.

I can see how Moho's contextual behavior might confuse a beginner, but it does get easier. Displaying only the tools that are relevant to the current task reduces screen clutter and helps keep me focused on the task.

[Daxel]

It's an almost ideal system except for the problems I kept encountering with the Freehand and Blob Brush tools. In a nutshell, I spent way too much time correcting errors generated by these tools. If these tools worked as they should, this would be an excellent workflow for Moho. Looking forward to trying this again someday when the freehand tools are improved.

Exactly. If those tools were improved we could have the best of each world. Vector drawings could be made directly and comfortably without leaving Moho, and we could easily manipulate and animate them with point movement interpolation and combining it with fbf when needed. A dream.