back to basics in point vector construction

Wondering how to accomplish a certain animation task? Ask here.

Moderators: Fahim, Distinct Sun, Víctor Paredes, erey, Belgarath, slowtiger

User avatar
zoesan
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:15 am

back to basics in point vector construction

Post by zoesan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:08 am

Image

Studying examples in Moho library and chosen what I thought was a relatively simple arm layer, the thing is I can't get the same result:

1. whole vector layer arm is selected, whilst without using hide lines the actual filled grey arm is in the front and filled sleeve is behind, can't use raise shape or lower shape, its grayed out being one layer.
2. To get this which point do you start drawing from and which point is welded to/from, tried and am keeping on trying but just can't follow the order taken to get this 'simple' but essential result if wanting to have the arm and sleeve move together when rigged.
User avatar
DK
Posts: 2459
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:06 am
Location: Australia

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by DK » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:33 am

Would it simply be just the small outline section that has been created then lowered below the arm fill?
That's what I would do to achieve this result.

Cheers
D.K
User avatar
zoesan
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:15 am

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by zoesan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:53 am

in this construction its one layer, so raising and lowering is grayed out in menu, I think its more to do with how the points were
originated,so not sure what's controlling it to work the way it does, tried arm first, then weld, tried t-shirt first then weld either way one of if not both resulted in the blue t-shirt sleeve being in front and not behind, two layers would work, but this is just the one, I'll get back too another attempt again deceptively simple, the outcome is that rigging moves/deforms as one layer.
thx DK
User avatar
zoesan
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:15 am

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by zoesan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:05 am

Image

the image may look shite, but think solved it (famous last words), start with sleeve form where you want arm to be finally welded, the start of the sleeve continue to close arm you can now select the whole vector as one and the arm is above the back of the sleeve, clean way of deforming, both the arm and the cloth when rigged phew took a few attempts have to watch out for this on further Moho studies.
hayasidist
Posts: 2179
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:12 pm
Location: Kent, England

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by hayasidist » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:27 am

you need to select a shape before the raise/lower shape functions are enabled.

the whole arm is one set of connected points. It doesn't matter which order you draw them as long as you don't have auto fill/stoke on - or if you do, just remember to delete the shapes (not the paths). Then use the create shape tool.

There are 3 shapes: from the top of the stack: The arm which has fill and stroke (the "blue" path in your diagram); the sleeve outline which has only stroke (all the yellow points); the sleeve colour which has only fill (the yellow points apart from the one labelled "start")
User avatar
slowtiger
Posts: 5453
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by slowtiger » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:46 pm

I'd never do something that complicated. Here's my solution: 3 shapes, no welding. The inner sleeve shape is just an oval. Outer sleeve has 2 corner points.
Image
AS 9.5 MacPro Quadcore 3GHz 16GB RAM OS 10.6.8 Quicktime 7.6.6
AS 11 MacPro 12core 3GHz 32GB RAM OS 10.11 Quicktime 10.7.3
User avatar
zoesan
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:15 am

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by zoesan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:15 pm

use of the word shapes has appeared twice now and I've just noticed in the menu a show all shapes when applied doesn't do anything - a layer is empty until you draw a shape and fill I assume.

Slowtiger is yours all on one layer, simplicity is always an advantage.

Image

Still getting the line above the greyed out arm, which is all on one layer, unbelievable but it worked last
hayasidist
Posts: 2179
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:12 pm
Location: Kent, England

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by hayasidist » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:34 pm

slowtiger wrote:I'd never do something that complicated. Here's my solution: 3 shapes, no welding. The inner sleeve shape is just an oval. Outer sleeve has 2 corner points.
indeed, and such an approach also allows for the different colours of the outside / inside sleeve as you show - which is something that the library character doesn't have. But the OP was as much about an explanation of the library character set-up as good practice design. (personally, I also use the 3 filled shapes approach as you do, but my own preference is to weld the points at the sleeve opening -where the front and back sleeve shapes coincide - to remove all possibility of relative motion but …)

zoesan wrote: a layer is empty until you draw a shape and fill I assume
basic terminology: a PATH is a set of linked POINTS; a SHAPE can include any number of points from any number of paths. If you use the Draw Shape tool and/or the Add Point tool with Auto fill / auto stroke on Moho will automatically create a Shape from the Path you create. You can manually create a shape from any set of points by using the Create Shape tool; and you can delete a shape without deleting the path by using the delete shape tool. Paths that are closed can be filled; those that aren't can only have stroke.

e.g. Turn off auto fill / auto stroke in the draw shape tool. Create a couple of rectangles or whatever so they don't overlap. Select all points. Use the Create shape tool with fill and stroke selected -- you get ONE shape from all the points. Now select the points from just one rectangle and move them so they overlap another rectangle. Look at how the overlap is not filled! Different behaviour from if you'd drawn two rectangles with the draw shape tool with auto fill/ stroke on.
User avatar
zoesan
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:15 am

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by zoesan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:36 pm

the original example is likely to have come from anime studio v.9 which leads me to believe as the simplest example, I like the way it works and all the points when selected look less problematic when using flexibinding, so going to continue to work it out, until then, thx you both.
hayasidist
Posts: 2179
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:12 pm
Location: Kent, England

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by hayasidist » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:06 pm

zoesan wrote:the original example is likely to have come from anime studio v.9 ....
it was actually created in Moho version 6.1 back in April 2010 - and "best practice" has moved on a long way since then -- but, whatever, enjoy!
User avatar
zoesan
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:15 am

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by zoesan » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:59 pm

"Hayasidist wrote: the whole arm is one set of connected points. It doesn't matter which order you draw them as long as you don't have auto fill/stoke on - or if you do, just remember to delete the shapes (not the paths). Then use the create shape tool.

going to look further into this, along with the shape / path, it's grabbed my attention now, so will get back too it and move on; the header topic was back to basics got a lot more of that to do. thx
User avatar
Greenlaw
Posts: 4578
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:45 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by Greenlaw » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:11 pm

I do exactly what Slow Tiger showed in his post.

Breaking the drawing into simple, stackable shapes is not only easier to understand, it's much easier to edit and animate, especially in a smart bone action. I suggest following his example.
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2019 Edtion
Lead Digital Animator, Dreamworks Animation

Image
hayasidist
Posts: 2179
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:12 pm
Location: Kent, England

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by hayasidist » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:54 am

yeah - there are some gems in the library, but it's also got stuff like this that might be useful in some situations but maybe not as an example of current best practice on "how to design and rig". I wouldn't want to see a purge of all old stuff, but there is a perhaps a need for a refresh...
User avatar
Greenlaw
Posts: 4578
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:45 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by Greenlaw » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:42 pm

Yeah, I think the old stuff should go into a 'Legacy' content folder. I don't think the material should be completely removed but, for new users, studying the old setups is probably more confusing than helpful.

Tip to newer users: If you're just starting to learn, IMO, it maybe more useful to study sample project files that were created for version 10 and up. Many significant technical advances in Moho that rendered a lot of old techniques and practices obsolete came about around then.
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2019 Edtion
Lead Digital Animator, Dreamworks Animation

Image
User avatar
synthsin75
Posts: 7211
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Post by synthsin75 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:24 pm

Actually, I think older stuff, without things like smart bones, might be better to learn the basics on. I mean if that simple vector construction can throw someone, god forbid they try to figure out what a smart bone is doing.
Post Reply