ASP 10 Drawing tools question

[heyvern]

I have to disagree. The points in Anime Studio are difficult to work with to get precisely what you want. Are they workable? Sure. But are they precise? No, they are not. Curvature of a point currently is guesswork, with no precise control over it. They work well enough, but they could work a great deal better. And I'd be willing to bet, that under the covers the animation system is tracking and controlling invisible control handles similar to a bezier, thereby giving the impression that the lack of bezier is making it easier to animate. Because that curvature is being stored and tracked somehow...

Yes that is true. The curve handles are "invisible". They also are symmetrical. You can't extend the curve on one side differently than the other. The curve and angle of a point is based on the position of the point in relation to the other points around it which is why it works so well. Yes, I agree that the underlying "math" would make it possible to have bezier with control of all the handles and point curvature as you describe.

However, think about this for a moment. Currently each point has an x and y position, and a curvature channel. 2 channels.

With bezier curves each point now has two curve handles. Each curve handle has an x and y position value. That is 4 channels for each point. With the point position that's a total of 5 animation channels for EVERY POINT. We have more than doubled the animation channels to keep track of. Oh wait what about peaking and smoothing? Add in a 6th channel for each point to designate if the curve handles are "connected" (smooth) or peaked.

With bezier we go from 2 channels to 6 channels for each point.

This is not a "bad thing". If you want that type of control you could use Flash or Toonboom or any other 2D animation program with bezier control. Probably why most people use FBF with flash instead. Each frame a separate unique shape. There is no "tweening" of shapes. No points to worry about with FBF.

Okay so now we have those 6 channels for every point. Let's say we decide this is okay. We like the control. The file sizes of Anime Studio would increase. The time for animating would increase because of the extra channels to manage. The end result would be the same as other applications that many of us rejected for the simplicity and features of Anime Studio.

The curves in Anime Studio do have some issues. It's not perfect and there is room for improvement. If you see some of the absolutely mind blowing drop dead fantastic over the top amazing animations done with Anime Studio WITHOUT bezier it is hard to imagine that it would do more than just make things more complicated.

I would LOVE to see some type of bezier control that works the same way as it does now. Some type of automatic curve adjustment that would not increase the amount of effort required to animate those points. I think this is a very difficult nut to crack. If it were "easy" it would have been done. This isn't like... it could be done easily but the developers just don't want to.

[wizaerd]

What is the trade-off of a few points with more channels, or more points to make up for the lack of other channels? You're stating that adding 6 channels per point would impede the performance, which would indeed be true. However what you're failing to list is that the number of points necessary per shape would be decreased significantly. I've seen some things in Anime Studio drawn with a very large number of points that could've been drawn with only a few bezier points. Performance surely is something to consider, but you cannot just unequivocally state that beziers would impede performance to the point they'd be undesirable. They must offer certain advantages seeing as they're pretty much the standard. I understand being resistant to them, but to just state "No, beziers are not needed" is not really a valid argument.

I've seen apps that actually offer a choice of points, thus leaving it up to the artist to decide which types of points they'd like to use. Even mix n match them for the best overall effect. I don;t think this as an option would be terribly bad to offer in Anime Studio, if it could be developed efficiently and well.

[dueyftw]

I happen to disagree with both of you. It's not how Anime Studio handles points and curves. The main problem with the program is the drawing tools, mainly the freehand. When you draw a line and then draw another one that attaches to one of the end points, the new line changes the old line. This is the big problem with AS as far as new users go. They expect to trace their art work with the freehand tool. And when they can't they get mad and leave, then bad mouth the program because they do know how to animate, but not with AS.

Will the makers of Anime Studio ever fix the freehand tool? Who knows? The freehand tool has gotten a downgrade from earlier versions. So don't get up your hopes up.

Dale

[slowtiger]

I don't see much of a problem here. AS is an animation program, not an Incredibly Precise Illustrator Clone. If I want to construct precise characters, I can do it in AS as well as in any other software, I just have to work a bit differently - but I'll be even faster. (I worked in FreeHand, Illustrator, and Flash for several years.)

If you need to draw, get a bitmap animation software like TVPaint.

[synthsin75]

Yes that is true. The curve handles are "invisible". They also are symmetrical. You can't extend the curve on one side differently than the other. The curve and angle of a point is based on the position of the point in relation to the other points around it which is why it works so well. Yes, I agree that the underlying "math" would make it possible to have bezier with control of all the handles and point curvature as you describe.

Sorry, but I'm not aware of any traditional bezier handles that adjust based on the relation to other points in any program. If programs did do this then you would have to adjust all the adjacent bezier handles whenever you move a point.

I think it is this relation of curvature between points that makes it unfeasible to expose it as true bezier handles. Not only would you have extra animation channels for bezier handles, but you would continually need to adjust these for every adjacent point you animated.


That said, I agree with you. I can create in AS anything I can create in any other program (often easier). Several of us have even done very complicated and realistic art in AS, mostly to prove the point. I have no trouble with the freehand tool either, as I am typically either sketching OR constructing for animation. I generally dislike bezier handles, and can actually create the exact same thing in AS without the hassle.

[heyvern]

Yes that is true. The curve handles are "invisible". They also are symmetrical. You can't extend the curve on one side differently than the other. The curve and angle of a point is based on the position of the point in relation to the other points around it which is why it works so well. Yes, I agree that the underlying "math" would make it possible to have bezier with control of all the handles and point curvature as you describe.

Sorry, but I'm not aware of any traditional bezier handles that adjust based on the relation to other points in any program. If programs did do this then you would have to adjust all the adjacent bezier handles whenever you move a point. [/quote]

Just to be clear I agree with you 100%. My statement above was about how Anime Studio works.

However, a looooooong time ago someone wrote a "bezier simulator" script tool for Anime Studio (I think it was 7feet who created it). This "fake" tool actually worked that way. it would expand and "rotate" the bezier curve handles as the point moved. You could also adjust those handles individually. However, converting that to real vectors in ASP is a different story.

[synthsin75]

Just to be clear I agree with you 100%. My statement above was about how Anime Studio works.

However, a looooooong time ago someone wrote a "bezier simulator" script tool for Anime Studio (I think it was 7feet who created it). This "fake" tool actually worked that way. it would expand and "rotate" the bezier curve handles as the point moved. You could also adjust those handles individually. However, converting that to real vectors in ASP is a different story.

Yeah, I remember that "experiment". I'm not so sure if people who like bezier handles would appreciate them expanding and rotating seemingly on their own. Especially when they realize that it really still works the same as always, only with superficial "bezier handles" gizmo added only to appease their expectations born from using other software.

I think it's funny that we always hear about "no bezier curves" but never hear any questions about how to create a shape they feel requires bezier curves.

[heyvern]

I think it's funny that we always hear about "no bezier curves" but never hear any questions about how to create a shape they feel requires bezier curves.

Ha ha! I did answer a question like that a loooooooong time ago, years ago. I had just started learning "Moho". Someone was complaining that it was impossible to create a "crescent" shape like a crescent moon without bezier curves so I made one and showed how to do it using two circles. You can leave "dangly" points to maintain curves and prevent distortions. It's all part of that "leaning a new way" thing.

Like you said, there isn't any shape anyone can throw at me that can't be done in Anime Studio. You just have to learn how the points work with each other. It's like second nature to me now.

p.s. I use the "rule of three". I've found I can get perfect smooth curves with 3 points (as long as there are points on either side). I try to build shapes thinking about that rule of three. 3 points adjusted and spaced correctly gives a nice smooth curve. I just follow that around the shape. Once I figured this out it saved me tons of fiddling and effort.

[slowtiger]

I don't have any trouble to create free-form stuff. It only gets a bit more fiddly when I need to create something rectangular and regular, like those typical Illustrator "characters" (think Pictoplasma). I zoom in a lot and call it a straight line as long as it looks like one in the normal view the characters are used in. Also I use sketches as reference to work on top of them.

[wabbeljabba]

Am I the only one who misses a line correction tool, like the pencil tool in Illustrator works naturally or like Manga Studio has been provided with in version 5.2 ? For people who are used to draw with a tablet it would be a big plus, I think. There has been only an attempt by Facek who had something like that in his Facek Tools, but it is to laborious, you have to select the points, that you want to change in a line, and then it does not differentiate between peak and smooth points. I'm wondering why no one has continued developing this idea.

[Waan]

I also do a lot of my illustration work in ASP. However I pretty much learnt to do digital art in ASP.. I've recently started interning at an anime studio using ToonBoom, and I am sorely missing Anime Studios tools, though I am, after about a week, getting used to the standard in drawing tools for most software, I still prefer ASP, as my workflow is much more efficient. Yes there are downfalls (Not particularly great for frame by frame, for example..)
I think I'd be quite annoyed if the drawing tools were changed drastically, they are brilliant as they are, there is just, as others have said, a slight learning curve, but once you get it, it's A-M-A-Z-I-N-G fun to make creations with this software

[Danimal]

p.s. I use the "rule of three". I've found I can get perfect smooth curves with 3 points (as long as there are points on either side)

Same here - three points for a great curve. I'm baffled how someone couldn't get a crescent shape. It seems like I could whip one up in, oh, 10 seconds or so.

[slowtiger]

I think that most problems are just caused by a lack of experience. Someone used to do stuff with only one program quite likely has difficulties to adapt to a different program. Someone who only learned one solution for each problem lacks a certain flexibility in thinking. Only if one has a bit of practice with different programs (really different ones) and knows at least 2 ways to tackle any problem he/she has truely gained experience and will not complain about new software being different from the one he/she used to work with.

[heiseman]

So this shape (semi-circle) was done in Illustrator with just 3 points.
[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/2s7vrer.png[/IMG]

What would be the best way to do this in Anime Studio Pro. Would it be by adding an extra 2 points above the 2 bottom points of the semi-circle? Or would it be by drawing a circle and subtracting a square?

After Effects gives users the option of Bezier and Rotobezier (which is like ASP). I would strongly support the inclusion of bezier curves in the next ASP (even as a secondary option). It particularly is better importing of illustrator artwork. Retracing in ASP to optimise artwork is a massive waste of time considering most artists illustrate vector artwork using bezier drawing tools and many bigger projects are produced using teams.

Anyway, my workaround is to export illustrator artwork as PNG's and animate bitmaps rather than vectors. If there's any particular shape that I want more control over individual points, I'll trace just that shape.

[slowtiger]

Draw a circle with the circle tool.
Script > Draw > Split curve, 2 or 3.
Get the two points right under the middle horiontal points, move them up until they barely touch those. Shift horizontally until curve looks good again. (It helps to have another layer with a circle under the current one for reference.)
Erase all points below.
Select the two points again and make them pointy.

Good enough for me.