"Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby Greenlaw » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:10 pm

Sure. This test was for work which I can't share but I'll reproduce the technique with my own personal art when I can.
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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby chucky » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:12 am

Hi guys,
You know this is pretty inventive, but I have to say, I find the whole thing a workaround for a shortcoming in the way switches and FBF work together.
I tried to explain back when FBF was in it's infancy , but my concerns and suggestions fell on deaf ears.
I think this method is fraught with pitfalls and compromises.

For example what if you were animating , straight ahead in FBF and you wanted to switch to a rig. then back again?

Or if you Were using a rig and wanted to go full FBF , then partial rig ( starting from a FBF drawing eg a twisted pose ) then back again?

This method ( although nicely proven for this propose) is limited and I don't think encourages a forward trajectory in rig tech.

Sorry for being a downer... and 'respect' Victor, I would say it if I didn't have the utmost respect.
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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby exile » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:03 pm

chucky wrote:Hi guys,
You know this is pretty inventive, but I have to say, I find the whole thing a workaround for a shortcoming in the way switches and FBF work together.
...
I think this method is fraught with pitfalls and compromises.

For example what if you were animating , straight ahead in FBF and you wanted to switch to a rig. then back again?

Or if you Were using a rig and wanted to go full FBF , then partial rig ( starting from a FBF drawing eg a twisted pose ) then back again?


Should this thread end on this note? We would all love to have a software that combines every advantage of FBF and bone animation and stays simple enough for ordinary mortals to use. Admittedly, both "switch bones" and layer ordering with masks http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29885 are workarounds and not the ultimate breakthrough (which may never come with any software). In the meantime, this side of paradise, these workarounds open new options. I'm just an amateur animator, so pardon me if I'm speaking out of turn. I see the switch bones as an excellent option for people who are willing to make more than one drawing for posing parts of a character - expecially if that simplifies the rigging process - but either lack the drawing skills or the time to do pure FBF. While I am wowed by nerdish rigs I've seen on YouTube with 360 degree head and body turns and every possible head position and expression, it's just too technical for me. I'd rather work on improving my drawing skills and using techniques like these workarounds to get something midway between FBF and rigging.
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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby Greenlaw » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:10 am

I use this technique all the time but, personally, I wish we had keyframe-able visibility for bones so I wouldn't have to do this. If we could put bone visibility keyframes in an Action, it could make switching 'sub-rigs' in a character easier and less 'clumsy' to set up because the arbitrary off-setting of artwork layers and bones would become unnecessary.

I'm not a programmer but this seems like another 'low-hanging fruit' feature to me. I hope so anyway, and I hope the developers will consider adding it.
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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby exile » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:44 am

That does sound good, Greenlaw, we'd have bona fide switch bones in that case. In the meantime we'll have to watch bones flying on and off screen. Seems cool to me at this point but I can imagine it gets old if you use the technique routinely.
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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby chucky » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:56 am

Better nesting for bones/smart bone actions , yada yada. That's what I think.
Then you could use switch rigs up and they would work.

It's a sore topic for me as it keeps coming up but gets squashed in favour of 'fudgy' workarounds. :P
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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby exile » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:30 pm

chucky wrote:Better nesting for bones/smart bone actions , yada yada. That's what I think.
Then you could use switch rigs up and they would work.

It's a sore topic for me as it keeps coming up but gets squashed in favour of 'fudgy' workarounds. :P


I think you have a right to be frustrated about features you request that aren't delivered.

As I see it, we're facing a fundamental problem: New versions of AS, now Moho, have come in rapid succession, always with enough features to convince us to pay for those comparatively affordable upgrades. According to this business model,the more spectacular the new feature, the more customers it will win over. Some big innovations have come out of this, such as smart bones, smooth joints for bitmaps, flexi-binding on one vector layer, to name a few. Even the manual and the standard tutorials are the old ones with new parts tacked on for the added features. As though everything was sewed with a hot needle instead of providing a completely new build. Frame-by-frame and drawing tools have gotten better, but at a slower pace.

Then a user comes along and shows us an improvement by thinking out of the box. Your FBF template is an example, the trick with a reference layer to manipulate meshes more effectively is another one. Possibilities that the programmers probably didn't think of are opened thanks to a smart user. I know that Victor was the product manager for a short time, but over the years he's been a clever animator who expanded the possibilities of the software in ways the programmers didn't think of. In other words, much like you, he's someone who comes up with a "fudgy" but useful workaround after the product has been released. I would say the workaround is not in place of the squashed feature, but in spite of it.
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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby chucky » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:00 pm

You are very close to the full truth.
I have a great respect and affection for Victor and his ideas and the old development team ( so far I am unfamiliar with the new one so I am not really talking about that). There is a great collaboration amonst all the users here on this forum, the dev's who keep an eye on the forum and the the inner sanctum beta team ( who have signed an NDA and can't discuss what goes on behind the curtain).
I can't go into any detail , but many ideas are discussed and tested amongst in this system ,I'm not criticising anyone creatively involved wth Moho's development, they are all brilliant , as are the ideas they come up with.
If only there was more time for Moho to be finely tuned, these workarounds wouldn't be necessary.
It's probably more to do with economics. :wink: Of which I have no knowledge , whatsoever. :mrgreen:
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Re: "Switch Bones" technique (a very useful one...)

Postby TheMinahBird » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:59 pm

Víctor Paredes wrote:Thanks!
I'm extremely excited about this. I feel it will change the way we rig and the quality of the results we can get using Moho. Well, that will happen to me at least :)
I made another test using a character from Steven Universe (I haven't watched the series, so sorry if I'm making spoilers...)
Image
Image
The rig itself is extremely rough and the animation only uses bone strength. This time I tried to animate the legs too. The inbetweens are far to be perfect, but it's very fun to be able to move the character from one pose to another totally different, so quickly!
Some time ago I was tired about the idea of creating the "definitive rig" that could work with most of the scenes of a short or series, but being able to "switch bones" really puts that idea back on track.


Hey Victor if you don’t mind can you share the Ruby rig you made? I smiled really big when I saw her because I love the show but I also liked how drastically different each pose was from the others within such short spurts. I just want to study the animation more in depth if that’s okay with you.
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