Hello Jelly

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:46 am

face camera... stopped working?

HI guy's ,
Ok here' the sitch.
One of my favourites tricks is rotating a layer in Y and keeping the shapes to face camera which arrays objects into a very convincing 3D effect.
Some might remember DaBOMB which deployed rather effectively.

Here is the layer array method I use..... shhhh this will be our little secret

.

Anyway, I have a plan to implement this in a variety of forms, including this jellyfish thing below, using anime with the help of Vern's 'save bone animation' script, but low and behold I come a cropper with the shapes facing camera- it just ain't workin'!

So I tried importing my old BOMB which used particle groups instead of bone groups and build a jellyfish other ways including particles but the shapes just keep twisting around, sometimes they will be good on frame 0 then suddenly snap sideways on frame 1.
What the #@%* is going on?

Take a look-(this is just a practise jelly rig, don't take the animation or look of it too seriously, my main concern here is getting the basic illusion right first) Note... the circles on the tentacles turn into ellipses, if they faced camera they would still be close to being circles- which is how DaBomb worked so well, atomic bombs and jellyfish have SOOOO much in common

Aslo note the perspective distortion on the front tentacle, this hasn't changed no matter what I do to track vs zoom settings- for those who know what I mean by that.
relevant file...
edit... removed file.

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:38 am

hm - why would you try to do that in 3D anyway? The design (which is really great!) allows for completely animating this in the normal fashion, no need to turn layers sideways.

DK · Post by DK » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:35 am

That's a hard one Chucky.....normally with 3D you want shapes to distort when rotated to add to the 3D effect.

Here's an example of a 2.5D Trex head using an AS technique I developed from an idea on the forum a year or so ago called Scale Rotate. It uses bone values to mimic a 3D effect.

http://www.wienertoonz.com/trex.swf

I might have a play with your jelly fish and see if there's a way to do it using scale rotate.

Cheers
D.K

DK · Post by DK » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:36 am

Here's a Jellyfish made with cale Rotate.
(Below)
Sorry for the multiple posts.....something went haywire.

DK · Post by DK » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:37 am

Here's a Jellyfish made with Scale Rotate.

http://www.wienertoonz.com/SCALEJELLY.swf

It does'nt actally look 3D because of the simplistic shapes like Slow said.

but the Scale rotated bones are simulating it (see anme file).

http://www.wienertoonz.com/SCALEJELLY.anme

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:48 am

From what I understand... the face camera option in the layer properties rotates the layer on the Y axis so it points to or faces the camera. If the camera is facing front and the layer is translated it will "rotate". If the layer is rotated face camera has no effect.

Are you saying that it use to behave differently? could it be that you changed the "use 3D camera" in the project settings?

-vern

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:57 am

Thanks for all the replies, Slowtiger DK et al, sorry I haven't replied quickly guys, I have off line for a bit. I made this file before I went off, but had no time to post it,
So here is the reason why I want to be a bit 3D .

DK great rex, I will check out the anme file presently, obvious I'm wanting to go for the simplest option here, if it gets to complex I' just have to go with a real 3D app

DK · Post by DK » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:04 pm

Yeah....I see what you're trying to achieve now....it could be more trouble than it's worth doing it in AS. Even the Scale Rotate method has it's limitations with rotation limited. Nice artwork though mate

Cheers
D.K

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:06 pm

HiVern , you might be helping me here, so.. thinking aloud, DaBOMB worked because each plume shape was on its own layer that was within a particle layer that was moving along a path, then grouped.
It was copies of that group that were rotated to create the array.....
Hmmmm. so I might try a rebuild with that in mind.
Thanks Vern, funny how I forgot my own technique even with the file in front of me....derrrrr

Thanks for the scale rotate example DK... wicked ... I really appreciate that mate.

hmmm that didn't work, check this out, frame 0 it works, frame 1 it doesn't....I had no problem with the bomb it worked first go, like a dream.

...

download anme file here..NEWJELLY.anme
and for comparison ....DABOMB.anme

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:53 pm

The big difference between the two files is that the bomb uses particles. It is the particle layers set to "face camera". It could be that particles behave differently than regular layers like in the jellyfish.

Have you tried viewing these files from the "top"? Go to View|Direction|Top. I don't actually see the layers in that configuration you indicated in the first post. Could it be the results you thought you were getting are different then what is happening?

I still have the old Moho application. I did a test to see if "Face Camera" on layers works the same as the newer versions and it does or at least seems to.

Also the jellyfish file, frame 0 looks just like frame 1. So whatever effect you are seeing on frame 0 with your AS, I'm not seeing the same thing.

I am still not sure I get the technique yet.

-vern

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:02 pm

Woops

my mistake Vern, try downloading the jelly anme file from the same link NEWJELLY as before, I had put an older version up

, it has the same name jelly 4, just overwrite the old version, you will clearly see the shapes in question pop into a squished version on frame 1, it's very strange, also use the orbit tool to see the layer array as described.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:51 pm

Yikes!

This looks like a bug. I think I've seen this before but I can't remember where or when. The points are getting squished but I don't understand why. Plus you can't even move them properly.

I will poke around some more. In those old crusty brain cells is a faint glimmer of a some kind of solution... but maybe not. I remember this being a problem that was very frustrating.

So, according to your description this is a bug that happened since... which version? Which version of AS or Moho did you use to create the original bomb file?

Actually... I take that back. This bug has to do with BONES. It is some kind of funky weirdness that happens when rotating layers with bones and... multiple things trying to control them. For instance you have the 3D camera, the rotated layers, face camera, bones etc... all effecting stuff. I think the bug is in that mix somewhere.

-vern

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Actually now that I think about it... it might not be an actual bug... but... just incorrect behavior.

The vector layers are rotating to face the camera... but the BONES ARE NOT! The bone layer is NOT ROTATING so the vectors get squished when they move!!!!!!!

I don't know if this helps but it explains why the layers are squishing.

-vern

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:13 pm

I just set it up so the bone layers for the tentacles face the camera instead of the individual layers. It seems to work... but there doesn't seem to be as much "3D". Maybe with some fiddling or changing of the layer set ups it will work.

Conclusion:

Setting the "Rotate to face camera" on a vector layer INSIDE a bone layer will result in "squishing" if a higher up parent layer is rotated. What happens is that the vector layers individually rotate but the bones don't which causes a "squishing" of the points. I don't know exactly if this is a bug or not. Moving layers "through" bones is a useful technique. By moving the vector layer the vectors are distorted by the bones they pass through. this is much different from actually moving the points, thus the confusion.

-vern

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:01 am

Thanks Vern, I think you have explained it properly, it's like a bug but not quite, it's just the limitations of bone layers are different to the limitations of vector and group layers,
I am thinking this is only when the bones are present or active in the layer, thus explaining the pop at frame one.

not to contravene the general law that a group layer is exactly the same as a bone layer.
Pity though that could have been useful for a bunch of stuff I wanted to do- and not just jellyfish

.
Looks like I might have to abandon ASPRO for this stuff and stick to 3D.
I now know why moho became 'aspro' .

. . . . . .