"Machine Masters"

Want to share your Moho work? Post it here.

Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger

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Captain Jack
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Post by Captain Jack »

Rhoel wrote:Maybe, I need to make a more detailed Tips and Technics on this sometime.

Tonight I have to do the day job.

Rhoel
Aha... and the light finally goes off in my brain. :) I was close, but I didn't think to use a transparent PNG. Excellent technique, and I'm sure I'll make quite a bit of use of it.

Tips & Techniques postings are always welcome, but of course I fully understand that the real world has to come first. Thanks again for the help, I really appreciate it. I picked up a lot of useful information from this thread, and some great ideas from your work.
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Nephilim
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Post by Nephilim »

Rhoel wrote: The animation isn't difficult, it's a straight head-on walk.


This is my question, the walk animation, how do you do it? How do you make straight on walks with bones? The way I see it, you see different parts of the foot every time he makes a step. Seems 3D to me... Do you use bone lock or do you make the animation and then translate the character forwards? I use bone lock but I only know how to make a character walk side to side. Please tell me how to do straight and angle walking. Also, how did you make the animation where he turns his head after he presses the "start" button on the machine. I understand the rest... this is what I was asking the whole time.

I've only really learned by the tutorials and have never gone on the forums so thats why I am asking so many questions :oops:
LittleFenris
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Post by LittleFenris »

I'm going to take a guess that he used frame by frame animation for the walking straight towards/away sections and not bones. Some things you just can't achieve with bones...or its just easier w/o them in some cases. There were some very nice 3D looking parts to the walking animation though, good job.
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel »

For Nephilim:
On a 3 minute project like this, you will find you use a number of different animation techniques. The mouse walk is bones, as is his hands winding up the key.

For animation like the head-on/away walks, the head nods and turns, those are all vector animation without bones. (because bones don't affect the Z-axis). The key positions are worked out on paper, then scanned and imported into a switch layer. The timing is perfected by moving the drawings to every 6 or every 8 frames then a replay is made with the background. If it looks right, then you start animation.

I have a head layer, a body layer, legs layers etc. You make your first head key, then move to the next key: You then move all the points to line up with the new reference drawing. You do this all the way down the scene. You will have to go back after and correct the inbetween points as computers don't always find the correct line. You then make the Body layer, etc until the character is complete.

For character/head turns, I use switch layers: This is because currently you cannot key the layer order on the time line: Lost Marbles is aware of this and its on the list of future features.

Animating the machine was the fun part, fun as in I really enjoyed that. Just remember it's a 1:30 camera move zig-zagging on a flat plane, with 4 different z-plane working. Z0 (zero) is the main machine, whilst Z-2 is the lights and background objects. Overlays are Z2 and Z4. (Just think multiplane and it's easy).

For learning animation, Preston Blair is the best source. This isn't the place to teach animation.

CAMERA MOVE NOTES:
Look carefully at that the camera move inside the machine, specifically the changes of direction from horizontal to vertical ... they are smooth - no L shaped changes of direction, just big rounded corners. To achieve this needs a special technique/different approach.

Look at Anime Studios camera: If you plot a camera move using only single keys on the camera timeline, keying the camera via positions A through B through C to D, the camera will get to B and stop, then change direction and make a new move to C, stops, new move to D. The inside-machine camera move isn't doing this. You will see the camera starts moving south before the east west position has been achieved. This uses a totally different approach, one which comes directly from "Real animation" cameras.

If you check out the rest of the CV set, you will see I have spent many years as a rostrum cameraman, including multiplane cameras on features like American Tail II. From that I know that a real camera only has a Z axis ... It can only zoom in and out. Any North/South or East/West are achieved by moving the table holding the artwork (The compound). There is a separate control for the N/S, another for the E/W. The rotation has its own set of gears.

So to make a good looking camera move you have to recreate the three separate "real camera" axis. In this very complex "camera move", where the camera "appears" to be zig-zagging all over the place, it's really the artwork that is moving, and not the camera.

To do this you must have two dummy group layers, one called North South Moves, and a second group called East West Moves. Inside that is all you artwork.

Heres the set-up.
Image

So how does it work?

The first move is just east west. So you make the move from A to B using the East West Group's translate layer timeline. BUT IT ONLY HAS A HORIZONTAL DISPLACEMENT. For the move from B to C, you use the North South Group layer, making a VERTICAL ONLY move. The start frame is 15-30 frames BEFORE the B key in the East West Moves.

If you then replay the A-B-C move, you will see the transition from EW to NS is now curved, not L shaped. The longer the takeover between the B keys, the smoother the curve.

This separating of the camera axis, is a very valuable technique. Its something I developed over 10 years of digital compositing with Animo - I now teach this technique to all new compositors because it gives so much control. It looks more complicated but in fact, it makes the scene so much more controllable.

If you want to add a camera shake, it's easy: Make a new CAMERA SHAKE group folder, and place the North South Moves folder inside this new Camera Shake group: This way, any new move inside the Camera Shake Group will affect the rest of the artwork. If the director hates the amount of shake or changes the animation so the impact is later, you just adjust the shake keys WITHOUT AFFECTING the existing camera move.

This techniques of moving the artwork and not the camera is directly derived from traditional animation camera technique. The problem is, many to todays animators have never seen a Oxberry Camera let alone used one. As a result, some of the "old" techniques and knowledge are being lost.

If you use A-B track and zooms, Anime Studios camera is just fine and dandy. But if you need anything more complex, involving a third way point, the above technique works every time. It's worth learning.

I'll probably have to make a new tutorial for the Tips and Techs section on this too - but later ;-)

Rhoel
LittleFenris
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Post by LittleFenris »

Great idea with the camera moves being seperate. I'd love to see a tutorial explaining and showing the technique in more depth. Maybe even an AS file that we can download and deconstruct ourselves while we do the tutorial.
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bupaje
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Post by bupaje »

@Rhoel - wow, incredible work! I love it. Inspiring to see what can be done with AS by a master. :)
[url=http://burtabreu.animationblogspot.com:2gityfdw]My AnimationBlogSpot[/url:2gityfdw]
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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

Cool tips on the grouped layers camera moves.

Funny, I sort of use that technique and didn't know it came from the "old school". Many times I need to move things "offset" like that and place layers in multiple sub folders so I have more control. I can change a sub layer (scale, translation etc) and change the parent group layer in a different way. I had to use this for a video inset behind a character zooming to full screen. I just couldn't get it to work smoothly with one layer movement and scale.

Is this the idea?

Maybe these "old ideas" won't die... just be reborn out of necessity. ;)

-vern
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jorgy
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Post by jorgy »

Thanks so much for sharing. The idea of putting your content into folders for X and Y axis camera moves is excellent! I've been wondering how to get smooth transitions, and not get the "L" problem you alluded to.

Thanks again!

jorgy
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p6r
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Post by p6r »

A marvelllous work !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6R
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slowtiger
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Post by slowtiger »

This is one of the things which are so elementary that one forgets to mention them. I have operated rostrum cameras as well, moving artwork on different levels feels just so normal that I never thought of people who don't have my background in camera.

In fact I find it much easier to plan complicated camera moves with moving the artwork than to do the math. I layout some keys in the storyboard, build my levels and adjust their relative positions. I don't care about "real distances" or mathematically correct speed, because if it feels right, it looks right, and nobody would notice the difference to a 3D built and calculated shot.

There's even more advantage to that: in sketching the keys I try to produce a satisfying composition of all elements. If the keys look nice, the transitions inbetween are not so important, at least as long as they're fast. If they are longer, or I have to follow a moving character, I adjust the foreground levels if necessary to show him long enough.
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Rai López
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Post by Rai López »

...Hmmm, I always have thought that move the backgrounds instead the camera in Anime Studio was a great idea for a lot of reasons until I understandood that I couldn't use "Bone Dynamics" together in my animations (at least in an easy way) cause a very weird results occured as you can imagine... Well, take you into account, only that :)
...
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel »

slowtiger wrote: have operated rostrum cameras as well,
And you are in Berlin .. did you ever work on the Hahn Films cameras on Swedtler Allee?
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slowtiger
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Post by slowtiger »

Uh oh, caught me ... Yes, I worked at Hahn Film from 1990 to 1995. Werner, Benjamin Blümchen, Der kleene Punker, and Asterix in America ...
Genete
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Post by Genete »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostrum_camera
For whom like me that didn't know what a "rostrum camera" is. :wink:

-G
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel »

slowtiger wrote:Uh oh, caught me ... Yes, I worked at Hahn Film from 1990 to 1995. Werner, Benjamin Blümchen, Der kleene Punker, and Asterix in America ...
Small world:) We probably know each other then ... I worked on Astrix in America too (later shift) and also got called back to shoot the Circus spotlight sequence on the Blümchen feature.

Nice place to work, good studio: I loved my time on Berlin ... personally, I think its the best city in Europe, but definitely, Berlin is not Germany. The only thing I never got used to was all the shops shutting half-day on Saturday.

And sadly, the little Deutsch I learned whilst living there has long gone - these days, I am struggling with learning Thai - somehow, I think I will never master this tonal language.
Genete wrote:For whom like me that didn't know what a "rostrum camera" is.
Its a bloody great camera which weighs over a ton ... not something you want to sling over your shoulder. Mine caught fire once, but that is a long story. Kids today don't know what they are missing ... clapper drives, dog clutches, rack-overs and snail drives. Tw oof mine had Bi-pack (which I have used many times) and an aerial image projector (tested but never used on production :(.

Here is an image from the Asterix in America feature - a common scene for the camera department ... looks like: two top-lit passes, (50% shadow run and 50% no shadow run), plus three back-lit passes, two for the fire, one for the cooking glow.

Image

Ah, the good old days ;)

Rhoel
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