New Series I'm Working on.

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super8mm
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Post by super8mm »

Nice work. Are you intentionally making them look like paper cutouts?
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neomarz1
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Post by neomarz1 »

super8mm wrote:Nice work. Are you intentionally making them look like paper cutouts?
... you know its the nature of the Anime Studio to appear that way. Sure there are ways to fix that through tedious line vector adjustment (Providing you use the Vectoring), but even that still looks "paper cutout like" This is no more "paper cutout" than your stuff you've posted. There is plenty of animation out there that looks like this, especially on saturday morning television. The only way to eliminate that is through frame by frame...

but maybe im missing a point less obvious. I appreciate your criticism, but tell me exactly what you mean, so its productive.
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Víctor Paredes
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Post by Víctor Paredes »

neomarz1 wrote:
super8mm wrote:Nice work. Are you intentionally making them look like paper cutouts?
... you know its the nature of the Anime Studio to appear that way. Sure there are ways to fix that through tedious line vector adjustment (Providing you use the Vectoring), but even that still looks "paper cutout like" This is no more "paper cutout" than your stuff you've posted. There is plenty of animation out there that looks like this, especially on saturday morning television. The only way to eliminate that is through frame by frame...

but maybe im missing a point less obvious. I appreciate your criticism, but tell me exactly what you mean, so its productive.
I don't agree about "it's the nature of anime studio". In AS you can easily get this kind of flat characters (that is why you can fin a lot on youtube), but it's work of the animator to get better results. The tools are there, if you find it tedious maybe you are not considering that animating itself is a "tedious" task and AS help us to get results faster.
Personally, I always try that my work looks the less flat possible, but a good animation requires work, no matter if you are on AS, Flash or with paper and pencil.

Anyway, I liked your work. I really enjoyed the composition and the character are well designed, but as super8mm said, it looks like cut-out.

As productive criticism I can recommend you to use some switch layers at least for the heads. A couple fast head turns for scene would help a lot. If you want to make your animation more dynamic you could make some body turns too, but don't think in complex, a couple switched turns from one frame to another would be ok if you know how to dissimulate them :wink:
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super8mm
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Post by super8mm »

This is no more "paper cutout" than your stuff you've posted.
"Paper cutout" means that there isn't any squash and stretch and all joints during the whole animation maintain an equal distance and all artwork remains static for the entire scene.
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lwaxana
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Post by lwaxana »

I think the main issue is whether you like the resulting effect of "paper cutout" methods or not. If the final animation matches your vision, then you're good to go. It is its own art form and can be very beautiful.

If, on the other hand, you don't want a noticeable paper cutout style of animation, but you like that work-flow, you could try using cutout techniques along with some strategically placed traditional animation.

In your "In the beginning" intro, the paper cutout style isn't very noticeable except maybe in the sword fights. But the Leaf character animation makes it more noticeable. I think the main reason is that she's doing a flip and facing forward the whole time. If you use a side view rig of the character it should look more natural, even without traditional techniques.

But these scenes where we're focusing our attention on the action and the character--these are the scenes where you can use some traditonal animation techniques and it could give the impression that the whole piece is traditional animation.

PS -- Selgin's idea of adding switch layers sounds like it could fit well in your work flow. That way you'd only be drawing a few more images, but the benefits would carry over into every scene you use the character in.
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lwaxana
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Post by lwaxana »

I just want to add, I hope you don't feel like we're picking on you! I think you're getting some extra critique because your project is so developed and because it's so close to professional quality. So then your work gets compared to professional standards.... really, it's a good thing. :)
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neeters_guy
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Post by neeters_guy »

I think the basis for comments like "looks like a really well done animatic" and "paper cutouts" is there seems to be a certain lack of weight and volume to the characters. This is something you can and should improve over time.

That said, what you have, for the most part, is good enough to get started. It's bold and eye-catching. If you can generate a lot of animation of this caliber using your workflow, then (as the saying goes) don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

The important thing is: Get that first episode in the can!
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neomarz1
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Post by neomarz1 »

neeters_guy wrote:I think the basis for comments like "looks like a really well done animatic" and "paper cutouts" is there seems to be a certain lack of weight and volume to the characters. This is something you can and should improve over time.

That said, what you have, for the most part, is good enough to get started. It's bold and eye-catching. If you can generate a lot of animation of this caliber using your workflow, then (as the saying goes) don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

The important thing is: Get that first episode in the can!
Actually I appreciate all this criticism that you "all" have offered (to include Super 8mm's comments). I have a pretty good knowledge of animation techniques in general, I do understand that I have alot to still learn. This "paper cutout" thing has caused me anguish during my workflow, and I have tried to adjust the best I can given my abilities. I wanted to stay away from the drawing tools (vectoring) in anime studio, simply because it hampered my stuff to look more like art. I dont like the perfect lines, and it makes the character rigging too complicated for the time frame I have set for my project. Unfortunately I cant do much about the joints, if I use this technique, about all I can do is make sure the joints are well blended, and the weighting is adjusted better. I'm hoping that the motion , and good art will hide this shortcoming. My workflow at this point is to get all the 3/4 views for each character out of the way. Side, Front, and back views I will work on as the project moves forward. Yes, I agree that switch layers are needed for little head movements. All thes little things add up quickly.

I think super 8 does great work, and I dont mean anything in a bad way. I just needed to hear more, so that I understood what he meant. Im sure all understand that its very personal when your persuing your dream piece. This project is my life's work, and I have been developing it since the Mid 90's First as a comic. I'm not a young buck either, and I have alot to compete against. I'm assuming that most guys working this out are younger, cuz technology has made it much simpler than when I was painting cells for my first project, back in the late 80's. Thanks again, and I do appreciate the comments.
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neomarz1
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Post by neomarz1 »

lwaxana wrote:I just want to add, I hope you don't feel like we're picking on you! I think you're getting some extra critique because your project is so developed and because it's so close to professional quality. So then your work gets compared to professional standards.... really, it's a good thing. :)
No I appreciate it, and I like your suggestions. I will definately consider using the techniques you guys have put forward. Thanks
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neomarz1
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Post by neomarz1 »

super8mm wrote:
This is no more "paper cutout" than your stuff you've posted.
"Paper cutout" means that there isn't any squash and stretch and all joints during the whole animation maintain an equal distance and all artwork remains static for the entire scene.
O.k. well noted. That makes sense. I dont mean offense, I like your work, and when I read the comment, it was 5:30 in the morning, so I was a little frustrated when I read it.
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lwaxana
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Post by lwaxana »

If you do want to add in more traditional animation principles, a place that you could start is any side view walk cycles or run cycles you may have in your story. I can picture your heroes running forward before slashing an enemy with a sword.

Others have mentioned squash and stretch as a way to add a sense of weight. I'm not very familiar with using characters made of imported images, but I just did some tests on the Winsor character. You should be able to use squash and stretch on imported images as long as the art doesn't start to look too funky and pixelated as you distort it.

Say you want to squash a leg as the character lands from a jump. You can scale the leg bone's length down a little bit to make it shorter and then go into the image layer and scale it up a little along the x axis to make it wider. (Or many people use a small perpendicular bone to scale the width.) I'd be curious to see how that looks on your artwork. :D
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neomarz1
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Post by neomarz1 »

lwaxana wrote:If you do want to add in more traditional animation principles, a place that you could start is any side view walk cycles or run cycles you may have in your story. I can picture your heroes running forward before slashing an enemy with a sword.

Others have mentioned squash and stretch as a way to add a sense of weight. I'm not very familiar with using characters made of imported images, but I just did some tests on the Winsor character. You should be able to use squash and stretch on imported images as long as the art doesn't start to look too funky and pixelated as you distort it.

Say you want to squash a leg as the character lands from a jump. You can scale the leg bone's length down a little bit to make it shorter and then go into the image layer and scale it up a little along the x axis to make it wider. (Or many people use a small perpendicular bone to scale the width.) I'd be curious to see how that looks on your artwork. :D
Very good suggestion. I think I can give squash and stretch in the motion. There are ways to simulate this with just body position. such as having the legs bow out to simulate weight, and having the body expand like a spring to show stretch. Im glad you suggested this. its the simple things we forget.
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neomarz1
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Post by neomarz1 »

O.k
My "In the beginning" scene is almost done. I'm struggling with getting the scenes I want into this part. Basically I need to add the barrage of arrows hitting a mass of Minnion soldiers. Maybe a fade at the end, and I need to go back and tweak a few scenes that I have already done. Any suggestions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiui0gzROT0
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lwaxana
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Post by lwaxana »

It's looking great! I like the new battle shots, especially all the arrows in the sky. Seeing as you're so close to finished, here are some more ideas that you may or may not find useful. ^_~

I don't know how much the viewer is supposed to understand about the story from the intro, but I'm confused about which species of warriors is the bowlore and which is the tupal. (Sorry, I'm sure I butchered the spelling on those!) As the narrator introduces them, he says the bowlore first and then the tupal. The blue one comes up first, then the red one. But I'm not sure if they are introduced as they appear because it's not quite simultaneous. Otherwise, my instinct is to go left to right like reading English. So if blue is in fact the bowlore, maybe you could sync the narration with the animation more so that it's clear. I'm also not sure in the battle scenes who is who.

I like the epic style of the narration, but some of the wording doesn't convey that epic feeling to me. "...but no one really knew why. they were nothing more than minions." and "...forgetting what it was all about" get the point across, but sound casual to me instead of epic.

Then there's the phrase: "...they were both 'a' species..." The use of "a" suggests to me that they're the same species. But I'm under the impression that they are separate species, in which case, you could say "...they were both species..." or "each a species of warriors" or something like that.

Okay, one last wild idea! Your narration voice acting fits well because it has a very brooding quality. But you could also go in another direction with a Cate Blanchett-like voice:
http://voice123.com/mp3/demos/pattyalle ... 20Samp.mp3
Still epic, but more in the tone of an oracle or something like that. Probably not what you're looking for, but it's something that's been on my animation wishlist and it seems fitting to your project. :)

Anyway, it's looking awesome. Keep it up!
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neomarz1
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Post by neomarz1 »

lwaxana wrote:It's looking great! I like the new battle shots, especially all the arrows in the sky. Seeing as you're so close to finished, here are some more ideas that you may or may not find useful. ^_~

I don't know how much the viewer is supposed to understand about the story from the intro, but I'm confused about which species of warriors is the bowlore and which is the tupal. (Sorry, I'm sure I butchered the spelling on those!) As the narrator introduces them, he says the bowlore first and then the tupal. The blue one comes up first, then the red one. But I'm not sure if they are introduced as they appear because it's not quite simultaneous. Otherwise, my instinct is to go left to right like reading English. So if blue is in fact the bowlore, maybe you could sync the narration with the animation more so that it's clear. I'm also not sure in the battle scenes who is who.

I like the epic style of the narration, but some of the wording doesn't convey that epic feeling to me. "...but no one really knew why. they were nothing more than minions." and "...forgetting what it was all about" get the point across, but sound casual to me instead of epic.

Then there's the phrase: "...they were both 'a' species..." The use of "a" suggests to me that they're the same species. But I'm under the impression that they are separate species, in which case, you could say "...they were both species..." or "each a species of warriors" or something like that.

Okay, one last wild idea! Your narration voice acting fits well because it has a very brooding quality. But you could also go in another direction with a Cate Blanchett-like voice:
http://voice123.com/mp3/demos/pattyalle ... 20Samp.mp3
Still epic, but more in the tone of an oracle or something like that. Probably not what you're looking for, but it's something that's been on my animation wishlist and it seems fitting to your project. :)

Anyway, it's looking awesome. Keep it up!
Thanks Bro. All very good insights.
Um, Yeah I knew there was some confusion there with who the Baulor, and Tupaul were. I'm going to tweak this a bit, I have an idea that may clear it up some.

The phrasing is a bit weak in that part of narration. The Original dialogue was way to long and complex to be used, so I tried to simplify it... maybe too much. see what I can do.

I love the audio that you supplied, I think its awesome. The only problem is that currently I'm stuck with only my vocal talents. I did get some voice morphing program thinking that it may be a helpful option. Not the best option... It may prove to be a useful tool in some instances, but Im going to have to find some vocal talent. If anyone knows how I can find someone for male and female voice work... Pleas let me know.
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