AS vs Solo discussion kicks off

A place to discuss non-Moho software for use in animation. Video editors, audio editors, 3D modelers, etc.

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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

I wouldn't touch "Solo" with a ten foot pole. the cost is prohibitive. If I choose "cheap" software I expect to make sacrifices in features and learn to workaround them. If I spent thousands of dollars for a program it better make coffee... wash my car... clean the house... and give me a massage. ;)

People who pay thousands of dollars for software MUST justify it. They have to put down the cheaper software that might have "better" features.

Smart people like us AS users... well... we don't have nearly that much invested so our devotion is more genuine... in my humble opinion.

I paid $99 for Moho a few years ago. I have made that back ten fold just in the enjoyment factor alone. I can't justify more than that since I don't do animation for a living.

If I spent $3000 or even $1000 I would either be grumbling and complaining or jumping up and down on some $200 program that was "just as good". Higher price means more demands from the customers.

I liked the name "Moho" as well... but... Anime Studio isn't that bad.

Maybe a new name... "Tuene Kabume" or "Anti-Anime Pro" or "Vista Home Edition". ;)

-vern
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Post by Postality »

Seriously... ZaideStudios really needs to do his homework.

"The fact remains that ASP was created for cut-out style animation and is not intended to contend with SOLO"

First of all Anime studio AKA Moho was created BEFORE Solo. Which makes me believe by what I've seen in Solo was a total "copy" of Anime Studio AKA Moho which they believed they could get BIG money for because at the time lost marble was a small quite unknown company.

HOWEVER, now that moho has a face in the market "E-Frontier" these guys are pissed at the fact that they got had by a $3000 piece of software that they now could have bought it for $200 and have a much easier user friendly interface.

I've have Anime Studio PRO and I've used Solo. The only thing I see that Solo has over Anime Studio AKA Moho is the morph function...

Needless to say that the learning curve of Solo is well beyond user friendly, why would you buy something JUST to get morphing for 3K when Anime Studio AKA Moho for $200 has everything that has to offer with a MUCH easier interface?

"It drives me crazy that kids today can spend a week in Flash making text creep across a screen and throw a set of lips at 5 f/s on a vector character and expect wealths of fame and glory"

Sounds to me that someone is mad at the fact that Mike made a Kick-Butt software package... Sorry E-Frontier, but Lost Marble is still the base behind this software reguardless of what name or label you put on it (Mike for the win!!!).

You know, I have to make an animation for this discussion PURELY in Anime Studio AKA Moho. I promise it will be humourous.

"The fact remains that ASP was created for cut-out style animation".

If only you could see how hard I was laughing right now...

You tell 'em Vern, don't go down without a fight!
Anime Studio - Ultimate Game Graphics
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J. Baker
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Post by J. Baker »

I usually don't get into these discussions but here we go...

I used ToonBoom some years ago and comparing it to AnimeStudio, is just a joke. I have not tried Solo myself but have read information on it here and there. There is no way that any 2D animation app can compete with AnimeStudio. One, the price is awesome and two, it's features alone are great for the noob and professional.

If anyone complains about AnimeStudio, it's just because thay haven't used it fully or are sticky to there overpriced software. I would be mad too if I had paid for Solo then came across AnimeStudio. But I wouldn't dog it just because of that. I would buy it and use it and forget my own mistake of not searching the net for similar software.

Anyway, that's my two cents and I'm not going to get into a battle when I could be doing what I enjoy. ;)
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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

We have the EXACT same problem over at Hash.com with Animation:Master.

Cheap 3D software ($300) really really knock your socks off features and power... incredible 3D character animation features... but...

The "elite" still think of it as "not worthy". It doesn't get written up much in 3D magazines (that has changed recently... a little bit). The owner doesn't pay the "bribes" to magazines for articles or reviews (apparently if you advertise in the magazine they are more inclined to publish "reviews".)

You go on to other 3D forums and you get the same type of bashing. Not because the software is "bad" but because it's good AND cheap. If it were really expensive and good... there wouldn't be an issue.

It's the same thing. Thousands of dollars for high priced 3D software... who is going to say a $300 program is just as good except the devoted users?

I swear, over the years... it seems the LESS I pay for software... the better it gets!! ;)

-vern
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toonertime
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ANIMATION MASTER

Post by toonertime »

I never had heard of animation master and went over to check it out.
It seems to be something I would like to learn. Does it generate
decent animations? Seems so.
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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

I like to think of AS as the 2D equivalent of Animation Master.
Both programs seem to have a similar... personality to me.

They don't overlap in anyway as far as I'm concerned. A:M is 3D all the way. I use it for photo realistic stuff. It does have a toon shader but I never got the hang of it and you couldn't control stroke widths or styles.

The bones are nearly identical. Even the constraints (A:M has more constraints though). The bones even look the same.

The reason I am so good with bones in AS is because of my experience with Animation Master. Rigging is almost the same but in 3D. Even modeling is similar using splines similar to AS instead of polygons.

When I bought Moho I kept getting feelings of deja vu. I was convinced there was something weird going on... like a secret conspiracy. ;)

-vern
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slowtiger
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Post by slowtiger »

I seem to be one of the minority who still animates pencil on paper, or at least has a background of that traditional training. What amazes me in all these discussions is that rarely someone steps outside his vector experience. Hey, there's a whole world of bitmap animation software available! There's camera grabbing and stop motion! There's paper and scanner!

So I don't really get it why any animator would like to restrict himself to vector animation only, or to just one application to make all his films with. If I do a film, I decide the style first, and only then which software I'm going to use. And I don't even use only one software per film.

AS has one big restriction for me: its "puppet"-approach. Everything in the scene must be built and rigged and stays that way during the scene (within the restrictions of the rig). This is a great difference to any frame-by-frame animation technique where I can change everything in any given moment in time.

I'd like AS to have a new kind of layer introduced: the frame-by-frame-layer. In this I could do all those head turns and other movements which are difficult or impossible to achieve with the rigging right now.
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Post by Sempie »

In a response to Slowtiger, I do have a traditional background, I've been in hand drawn animation since the past 20 years, worked on commercials and a couple of European Disney style feature films (mostly with horrible scripts, unfortunately, but that's Europe, I guess), and still think traditonal animation is the superior animation method in 2D land. (Before I get big rants about that - anyone up for trying to do Alladin, Lion King, Jungle Book, Bambi or Fantasia with a vector based software? I don't think so. It's a lot of work, but you get a lot more Illusion Of Life than with any other competing method - and you're not limited to motion in x and y axis only. Each expression is hand drawn, and from the 3D experience I have, there's loads more personality in a pencil stroke than in a morph setting.
Subtilities like the shoulder movement in Shere Kahn preparing to jump his prey, true to life dog movement like in Lady and the Tramp, wild cartoon takes like Tex Avery did, Tigger jumping and spinning around his axis don't seem to be possible in computerized 2D software yet. Even the best computer generated stuff I've seen has a sterile quality, the personal touch of a hand drawn pose missing.)

Nevertheless, the market is changing, 3D took over, and what little there is left of traditional hand drawn animation is outsourced to China, Korea and India.

That said, what we currently have in pre-production will be a vector based production - there's no way we can do it the traditional way with the budget at hand.
One of us is doing the BG's, charater designs and rigging, the other (me) will be expected to do about 30 seconds of high quality character animation per week. Two artists, one show, that's it.

We're still contemplating two software packages - guess what: exactly the two that are being discussed here in this thread.

One we've already tried our hands on: the demo-version of Toon Boom Solo, and we're moderately enthousiastic about it.
A couple of things we like: complex rigging, the node tree approach to effects, the skewing tool that is quite good for doing squash and stretch, bezier splined graph editors to control the motion, the template library where eyes, hands and even complete faces can be replaced for lipsync, animated hands or even hand-drawn head turns. The possibility to save stock animations like walk cycles and copy them to other scenes for re-use.

A couple of things we dislike: IK mostly unusable, complex rigs really make very complex node trees and are taxing your hardware during animation, animation changes at certain points in the animation often affect - and destroy - animation for the changed elements throughout the entire scene, sporadic software crashes. (And the manual, that is rather based on how the software was modually contructed than on how people actually use the software)
Playback with synchronous sound playback not possible while scrolling or at lower frame rates. (And no, automated lipsync defenitely is not for us.
It mostly just looks horrible.)
And playback as slow as 4 frames per second for longer and more complex scenes, even if that's partially my hardware, I really need to invest in a new computer, I'm even thinking quad core.

The bouncy, cartoony animation style we are striving for seems to be achievable in Solo, but the need to wade through several dozens of elements in the timeline to get access to the graph editors, or to select hidden body parts, really slows down the animation process.

The other contender, Anime Studio Pro, we haven't tried yet, even if my colleague bought one licence in an impulse yesterday.
The price is a steal for professional software: one of the reasons why we're a bit suspicious.
The bone rigging seems to be superior to Solo's approach, though, at first glance, and the Greykids video clips were really impressive.
The program seems to be more user friendly and more intuitive in a lot of ways as well.
Meaning we are really considering Anime Studio instead of Solo.

The price tag isn't really an issue (we could buy both and still keep within budget), the time investment in mastering the software is. (It took us a month to get to grips with Solo, that is not overly user friendly, and we still have a way to go). If we're going to switch software, postponing it for too long would realy cost too much time.

The element of mixing vector based cut out style animation with hand drawn elements (for headturns, etc, try to make a character nod 'no' without it) remains a deciding factor in our choice of software.
The amount of fine tuning that we have in Solo, no matter how time absorbing, is a crucial element as well - we need to have clean motion arcs and proper spacing, ease in/ease out, end of story.
Anime Studio needs to have similar fine tuning tools.

Again, the output is not going to be hobbyist clips for YouTube, we are talking about a small scale TV poduction here.
We're not interested in the slightest bit in the Poser-like approach of adding ready made characters to our collection - we will use our own characters only. (We may download a couple of the weekly free releases at Content Paradise to study the rigging, of course)

The Anime Studio Forum suspiciously sounds like a place where one can find people that know their software - anything that would make our choise easier would be great.

Our man aim is to get as close to traditional animation as possible using a vector based cut out style animation software - with a professional output, of about 30 seconds worth of high quality animation per week.
Why would we use Anime Studio over Solo?
Is it worth investing a lot of time in another piece of software, postponing production that way?

Any reactions will be greatly appreciated. (Even downright biassed ones.)
Last edited by Sempie on Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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toonertime
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just curious

Post by toonertime »

i am just curious if you had considered Flash,
because I know it is used by other professionals.
Sempie
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Re: just curious

Post by Sempie »

toonertime wrote:i am just curious if you had considered Flash,
because I know it is used by other professionals.
I haven't seen Flash used since version five, but I remember disliking the software then.
We used it by producing traditional, handdrawn animation that was then scanned, vectorized by tracing it in Illustrator, then importing and timing it in Flash for use within a computer game.
I absolutely avoided creating artwork within Flash itself - as did most of the other animators.

Even if I am a skilled draftsman, I am limited to cut out techniques (or pre rigged 3D characters) in the computer, as I have never been able to get a decent line out of a Wacom tablet, especially not when you have to be as precise as in animation. I cannot trace a line with a Wacom tablet without going all over the place. (I can do it on paper with a single swift stroke of a pencil)

As an alternative, I profoundly hate vector tools when drawing (horribly sterile even if I ever technically get a halfway decent drawing out of it - I just hate all bezier based drawings for being dead and sterile) and really need a free hand style; I was not even able to clean up my own hand drawn animation in Illustrator using bezier curved shapes, it all came out horrible, and we had other people going over my sketches. (And I still wept over the sterile end products)

The only 2D animation I ever did on the computer before trying out Solo was with D-Paint and TAS on the Amiga, way back, and with Aura on the PC, that since then evolved into Mirage. In all cases, incredibly wobbly lines derived from a free hand drawing method, were part of the animation style: it had a charm of its own, but in the production that we have in pre-production at this time this is really not an option at all.
(Even after a month of animating with Wacom tablets, my lines still went all over the place, and the horrible drawings I did only worked within the animation, that depended much more on funny movements than on well drawn poses.)

Whatever handdrawn animated elements will be incorporated in the current prodution will be done on an animation desk with pencil and paper where I have full control over what I'm doing, then scanned, and cleaned up by my collegue in a free hand, loose style, before importing it into the software and using it as stock footage (such as head turns).
We try to keep this to a minimum because of the time involved.

The actual animation I'll do without drawing directly into the scenes, by moving around rigged characters. I know about weight, I know about timing and spacing and body language: but I will refrain from drawing during the animation, contrary to any production I have worked on before, where I hand drew every single line.

Flash does not really seem to be the way to go for me. In my memory, animating in Flash was so far removed from how I animate on paper that the idea of animating in Flash itself made me shiver. There wasn't even onion skinning; how the hell is one supposed to animate subtle acting without a light table? Flash 5 seemed to be more restrictive than anything I'd seen before: that's why all the art work was drawn on paper, including all inbetweens.

Years later, I've seen some nice things done in Flash - Arj & Poopy, even though that is a bit static sometimes, and some clips of the animated feature Phil Nibbelink did all by himself - but I think both drew their animation directly within the software, and that is defenitely not for me.

The appeal of Solo or Anime studio for me lies solely with the possibilty to move rigged characters around in a similar fahion like in 3D animation, I know how to get entertaining animation out of that up to a certain limit.
The artwork will look good because I will not have drawn it with a Wacom tablet.

For creating actual artwork I'm limited to pencil on paper only. For animating on the computer, I want to completely avoid drawing on Wacom tablets within the computer. To me, that does not sound like Flash at all.

But as I said, I have no idea what happened to Flash since version 5. so correct me if I'm prejudiced about the software.
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Post by jahnocli »

sempie wrote:There wasn't even onion skinning...
This is just not true -- Flash has had onion-skinning for a long time (way before version 5). So, it's an interesting post, but you need to get your facts straight if you are mouthing off (as I have found so often in the past!)

J
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Post by cribble »

This discussion gets a 'whatever, you bevels'.

If you like Solo, go use it. If you like Flash, go use it. If you like AS, go use it. Simple. If you like some of the above and not all of them... you get the idea. No need to argue bollocks about wherever it can be used professionally or if its just a toy.

It's a toy/professional tool to the beholder.

:roll:
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JimmyC
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Post by JimmyC »

AS suits me in every department. Glad I got it now.

Am I reading the toonboom site correctly - Studio is for the single user, and Solo is for studios - eh? That alone worries me, apart from the utterly ridiculous price. Good ol' Moho/ASP. I hope EF don't let it slip.
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Post by slowtiger »

Sempie: In my recent job we are expected to turn out 15 sec of character animation a day - in AS. One animator is even said to do 30 sec a day.

Squash & stretch are quite nicely done in AS by means of bone stretching.

Have you ever tested a Wacom Cintiq? It is a combination of tablet and flatscreen. I used Wacom tablets for a decade but was never able to animate with it. The Cintiq has changed that. I didn't believe it, but the difference is really big. Test it with Mirage, a nice little bitmap animation package currently at 549$.
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JimmyC
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Post by JimmyC »

Just looked up the Cintiq !!!!!!!

RRP £1,899.00
Web Price £1,825.00 (£2,144.38 inc VAT) around $4,000 !!! WOW

OK for a business I suppose. Looks great, but until the lottery comes up I'll be using my old Wacom.
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