Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

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Francis Seven
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Francis Seven » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:47 pm

Hi Andy, can you please PM me what email address I used? I don't remember emailing your company and I'm not finding anything in my outboxes. I might have used my wife's email at the time or something like that. But it's been four years and I can barely remember yesterday, let alone 4 years time.

What is strange is that you remember it. That, added to the fact that you always appear when CelAction2D is mentioned, makes me fearful you are some sort of AI entity that lives in the web. ;-)

It's so weird, it's like the "Mandela Effect", it's like you're talking about an alternate, mirror universe. I really would like to see that email.

Thanks
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Andy Blazdell » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:21 am

Francis Seven wrote:What is strange is that you remember it. That, added to the fact that you always appear when CelAction2D is mentioned, makes me fearful you are some sort of AI entity that lives in the web. ;-)
AI is a lie just to fool Venture Capitalists. It's all Google Alerts and Searches in Outlook. The way I see it, if you can remember 2014, you weren't really there. ;)

I've PM'd you.
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by drumlug13 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:03 pm

CelAction 2d !!! :shock: ... Hi Andy

Without any drawing tools in CelAction, how would you go about making something like this? It's vector but it basically started out as a sort of 2.5D cube. Then I turned the basic shapes around with Moho's Smart Bone. (none of the shapes ever leave the 2D plane). It's just a continuous process of adding points, "turn" the car around in 2D space, and another point, repeat, repeat... until I eventually had my car.

I'm not knocking CA because I just watched some pretty cool character turnarounds, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the workflow for when you have to keep changing the artwork in another program. In this case it would have literally been a hundred + times of going back and forth between an external drawing program and CA

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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Andy Blazdell » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:47 pm

drumlug13 wrote:Without any drawing tools in CelAction, how would you go about making something like this? It's vector but it basically started out as a sort of 2.5D cube. Then I turned the basic shapes around with Moho's Smart Bone. (none of the shapes ever leave the 2D plane). It's just a continuous process of adding points, "turn" the car around in 2D space, and another point, repeat, repeat... until I eventually had my car.
That's an interesting choice of test - I guess you've seen one of our demo reels at a show. I'm not allowed to post it online, but we have basically done exactly that with a car, and had the door open too.

Although we don't have drawing tools in CelAction2D, we do have construction tools, and we can convert vector layers from Illustrator and Flash/Animate CC into editable formats. So you have a choice of drawing something complex in Illustrator and importing it to later edit, or constructing it from scratch from primitives in CelAction2D.

We haven't attempted drawing tools yet because between Photoshop, TVPaint, Flash and Illustrator you've got 4 very different workflows, that would be impossible to combine all the best bits of in one drawing function (because some of the concepts are diametrically opposed). So we allow users to mix and match the ones they want.

So in our version of the car, some of the parts were drawn in Illustrator to make the most of their advanced technical drawing tools, and then each individual section was brought in to CelAction2D to be converted and edited. So no back and forth required, but it was (in this case) a one-way trip. It was virtually indistinguishable from a toon-rendered 3D model, you could only tell it was 2D if you were looking for it.

We'll probably have it on the big TV at our Annecy stand if you're going to that and want to see it again.

But to answer your main question, for the really smooth turnarounds you've seen, they were probably constructed, or pre-drawn and then those parts were used as a basis for the construction.
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drumlug13
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by drumlug13 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:46 pm

Andy Blazdell wrote:That's an interesting choice of test - I guess you've seen one of our demo reels at a show... We'll probably have it on the big TV at our Annecy stand if you're going to that and want to see it again.
:lol: ... the balls on this guy... Don't flatter yourself, I had never heard of you or your company before this thread started.
But okay, I can read your poorly veiled insinuation that I lifted my car from your demo reel. However my car was posted over 2 years ago so, as deflating as it may be for you, no, I have not seen your CelAction demo reel.
Andy Blazdell wrote:I'm not allowed to post it online,
Yeah and I had dinner with Olivia Newton John last night and I have pictures, but I'm not allowed to post them online :roll:

If you just dropped in to bust everybody's chops in the spirit of a "My Beatles are better than your Rolling Stones" fun debate then fine, it's all good. But your comment seems like it came from a different place. Some sort of low, creepy, slimy place.

And while we're at it...
Andy Blazdell wrote:It was virtually indistinguishable from a toon-rendered 3D model
... Toon rendered 3D is lazy and looks like crap :D
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Greenlaw » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:28 pm

I could be wrong but the way I read the post, he was just saying that they have a comparable 2D car animation on their tradeshow reel, not specifically your car animation. I didn't think he was insinuating anything.

And the company might not be able to post the animation clip online because the client or artist hasn't given them clearance to. (I've been in that situation.)

That was my impression anyway.
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by slowtiger » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:41 am

drumlug13 wrote:I had never heard of you or your company before this thread started.
Just a hint: that somebody working for a company with a product which is quite well known for 15 years comes into this forum and answers questions should earn him a minimum of respect.
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by drumlug13 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:23 pm

For the record, I did seek more than just my opinion before I replied to Andy's post and I'm not the only one who thought he was implying something more with his comments. Even with that in mind, my response was intended to be humorous and not hostile.

But I consider Greenlaw and Slowtiger to be pretty level headed guys so obviously my post missed the mark. So CelAction 2D Andy :shock: (shazam) I apologize for what now (even to me) looks like an over-reaction to your comments. ESPECIALLY if you feel like you would not be welcome on this forum
slowtiger wrote:Just a hint: that somebody working for a company with a product which is quite well known for 15 years comes into this forum and answers questions should earn him a minimum of respect.

Absolutely. My original question was an honest question about CA workflow. The later response, I promise, would have come across with the intended humor if they were exchanged over a beer in a pub and not text online.

So... I humbly ask Mr. Andy to accept my apology.

I do however stand by my long held opinion that toon rendered 3D objects look bad in an otherwise 2D scene.
Last edited by drumlug13 on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by slowtiger » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:41 pm

drumlug13 wrote:I do however stand by my long held opinion that toon rendered 3D objects look bad in an otherwise 2D scene.
That depends - on the technique used, the scene, the overall style. I well remember the first CGI objects in Disney 2D animation: the Jeep in The rescuers down under, the Big Ben clockwork in Basil. With Basil they still had to print out the CGI frames on paper, xerox them on cel, and paint by hand, with the Rescuers they already used CAPS. In both films it was easy to identify the CGI objects, but not because of line quality which was exactly the same as the rest, but because of the smooth animation and flawless perspective. (I think the carriage in Cinderella was traced from a filmed model, but I can be wrong.)

In Asterix conquers America (1994) we used Mental Ray to render the CGI ships on the CGI ocean with 2D hand-drawn characters, and I think our combination still looks pretty good. See the storm sequence starting here https://youtu.be/tI__MtV06eo?t=1531. All the foam on the waves was hand-drawn, then mapped on the waves. (Colouring was done in Toons.)

I think the overall design and animation style is a much stronger factor than which kind of toon shading you use. In some styles 3D and 2D combination will totally work, in most others not.
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Andy Blazdell » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:23 pm

drumlug13 wrote: :lol: ... the balls on this guy... Don't flatter yourself, I had never heard of you or your company before this thread started.
But okay, I can read your poorly veiled insinuation that I lifted my car from your demo reel. However my car was posted over 2 years ago so, as deflating as it may be for you, no, I have not seen your CelAction demo reel.
Actually Greenlaw got it right, it's just so random that you would choose a rotating car to demo what can be done in a 2D vector application, I assumed you had chosen it because you had seen our version (done in 2014, I think). I've been re-reading my post and I cannot find any indication that I was implying you stole it, so I have to assume you're just teasing me. :)

It doesn't surprise me that you haven't heard of us, we spend a tiny fraction on marketing compared to our competitors, and what we do spend is generally targeted at a specific part of the animation community. We don't aim our product at hobbyists or solo animators, so we don't do a lot of shouting in public.

My only reason for coming to this thread was to clarify some statements made about Peppa Pig, because I do know a lot about that show and about what features it uses with CelAction2D. Then people started asking questions, and it would be rude to not answer them. I do so in the full knowledge that I'm in the heart of "enemy territory" :) and people are going to be poring over my words looking for conspiracy theories, veiled insults and subliminal marketing. I'm sorry to disappoint them. ;)

Anyone who knows me knows I am more than happy to talk about animation, tools and the production process - I love it, I totally geek out. And I believe that spreading correct knowledge benefits everyone, whatever tools they use (a rising tide lifts all boats, and all that).

So if anyone else does have any questions about CelAction2D, write to me directly (not PMs, it's not fair for Mike to be paying for the bandwidth). I only ever return to this forum to answer questions or to correct inaccuracies. I do occasionally read this forum because there's some interesting and intelligent conversation going on here (certainly compared to other public animation software forums) but I only speak when spoken to (I had a traditional English upbringing :) ).

Speaking of inaccuracies, I must apologise to Francis Seven, the email I thought was from him actually wasn't, but by way of a really spooky coincidence it really really looked like it was, but in truth if he had have written to me then, he would have got the same reply. What with that and Drumlug's car, this is obviously bizarro coincidences week. :)

And Slowtiger, thanks for your comment, that earns you a beer if you drop by our stand at Annecy. :)
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Andy Blazdell » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:28 pm

drumlug13 wrote:For the record, I did seek more than just my opinion before I replied to Andy's post and I'm not the only one who thought he was implying something more with his comments. Even with that in mind, my response was intended to be humorous and not hostile.

So... I humbly ask Mr. Andy to accept my apology.
I really must learn to type faster, you posted while I was replying. :)

Of course I accept your apology! No harm no foul. I got the humour. At least you didn't call me scruffy-looking. :)
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by slowtiger » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:36 pm

And before it looks like I'm only writing for the beer: I'm not in Annecy this year, but thanks anyway!

(Hope to be there next year, with a new film.)
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Greenlaw » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:34 pm

I'll animate for beer. (Okay, not really.) :)
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by hayasidist » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:36 pm

@Andy -- anyone from the Peppa Pig team at Annecy too? my 4yo would - if he could - buy me a beer if I found a way for him to say hi to them (notwithstanding the planned disruption on SNCF across the middle days)

(oh - do I need to use the magic words? just in case - alakazam alakazee ka-zing CelAction. 2D )
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Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by dkwroot » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:45 pm

How does CelAction 2D handle smear frames if it doesn't have native drawing tools? I find working with smears to be difficult in Moho, so I imagine it's even more of a pain for them.
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