Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

A place to discuss non-Moho software for use in animation. Video editors, audio editors, 3D modelers, etc.

Moderators: Fahim, Distinct Sun, Víctor Paredes, erey, Belgarath, slowtiger

User avatar
Greenlaw
Posts: 4461
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:45 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Greenlaw » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:22 am

Hmm...I was mashing up Candyman and Beetlejuice but I'll heed your warning.
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2019 Edtion
Lead Digital Animator, Dreamworks Animation

Image
User avatar
synthsin75
Posts: 7155
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by synthsin75 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:45 am

Greenlaw wrote:Hmm...I was mashing up Candyman and Beetlejuice but I'll heed your warning.
Ah, I made the Candyman connection, but somehow in that context missed the Beetlejuice one. Makes sense now.
User avatar
drumlug13
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 9:16 pm
Location: Beautiful St. Louis, MO

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by drumlug13 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:09 am

There's a Juice Newton joke in here somewhere... but that would be too easy.
User avatar
synthsin75
Posts: 7155
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by synthsin75 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:25 am

drumlug13 wrote:There's a Juice Newton joke in here somewhere... but that would be too easy.
:lol: That was the EXACT connect I made to "juice" earlier. We're showing our age.
User avatar
Francis Seven
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:57 am
Location: City of Domes

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Francis Seven » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:41 am

Andy Blazdell wrote:Hi, it's Andy from CelAction here, I feel I should step in and clarify some things about Peppa Pig. It's not a simple as it might look.

(snip)

Peppa Pig is created by an incredibly talented team, that make the complexity invisible to the viewer. They need the ability to work beyond the limits of other software, and they need pro-level support. Not everyone needs that ability or that level of support, but CelAction2D is meant for those that do.

Hi Andy, so you're basically saying not to buy CelAction 2D because it's so complicated that it overcomplicates even something as simple as Peppa Pig?

Thanks everyone who've replied, at the moment I'm still split. The stuff put out with Moho/ASP/ONJ or whatever it's calling itself next just always seem overly "bouncy". I'm guessing it's a stylistic choice. Puffin Rock is one of the few decent things I've seen out there.

I'll be taking a look at that InfiniteSkills tutorial tonight.
User avatar
chucky
Posts: 3932
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:24 am
Location: Van Diemen's Land
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by chucky » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:26 am

The animation Style is up to you.
I sometimes think that the Debut version should have a default interpolation of linear rather than smooth too. Some people think that the smooshy look is a Moho thing, no, it's the user. They are not putting pauses into the animation and just flowing from one position to another.

That is because Moho is so easy to use by untrained animators, it's a blessing and a curse.
The curse being that people think that this 'untrained' look is a Moho look.

I am un untrained animator too, and this is the hardest thing to avoid in Moho, even though avoiding it is actually very, very easy.
Just use more hold keys or repeat the last pose.
You just have to remember to do it … religiously.

Move, then stop.... Move, then stop.

I think Moho IS the software for your project, but you must learn how to achieve the look you want, not just how to use the software.
Sequential offender.
my latest animations
Andy Blazdell
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Andy Blazdell » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:21 pm

InfoCentral wrote:I useToonBoom Harmony. Do you have crossgrade pricing?
No, not with any software. We've never been keen on that kind of promotion. It's got nothing to do with what happened to Bauhaus in 2006, either.
Andy Blazdell
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Andy Blazdell » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:24 pm

drumlug13 wrote:.
Bare with me for a second, I want to try something out real quick ...

... Ready?


.... CelAction 2D :shock: !!!!


(... is Andy back yet? )
:D Google Alerts is my friend.
User avatar
chucky
Posts: 3932
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:24 am
Location: Van Diemen's Land
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by chucky » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:52 pm

Ouch Bauhaus! Yep I had Mirage and I lost my dongle ( had it stolen from hotel room with a bunch of other stuff) not realising that that whole thing had gone down. In fact I didn't even know that TVP existed.

I've never upgraded TVP.
Sequential offender.
my latest animations
Andy Blazdell
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Andy Blazdell » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:54 pm

Francis Seven wrote: Hi Andy, so you're basically saying not to buy CelAction 2D because it's so complicated that it overcomplicates even something as simple as Peppa Pig?
No, I'm not saying that, but nice try. :)

Some scenes in Peppa Pig are simple, like Peppa and her family jumping in muddy puddles. If that's your target, most software can handle that.

Some scenes in Peppa Pig are not so simple, like shots with 30 or more fully-animated characters and pull backs or zooms using massive detailed backgrounds. Some software will have issues with such heavy scenes. If that's your target, then you have to be more selective in the software you choose.

Also, if your target is just a 5-minute short without a deadline, then that's a different ball-game from doing a 52x5' series. Complexity is easier to overcome if you have extra time to deal with it.

The Peppa team put a phenomenal amount of effort into making it all look "simple". That's why it's not just a commercial success but a critical one too, having won major prizes at Annecy, Cartoons On The Bay and BAFTA. Their peers in the industry appreciate just how complex simplicity can be.
User avatar
chucky
Posts: 3932
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:24 am
Location: Van Diemen's Land
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by chucky » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:48 pm

Also, if your target is just a 5-minute short without a deadline, then that's a different ball-game from doing a 52x5' series. Complexity is easier to overcome if you have extra time to deal with it.
This is very true and exactly one of the reasons I made Tern Tale.
This was a project to test a production flow with Moho using excessive extras and many simple shots.

To test its viability for serious production and not just very short pieces.
With all the character and prop assets made before production by retooling and adapting basic character types I was able to animate scenes incredibly efficiently and quickly.

SIngle handed I think it was 6 weeks to do the whole thing.
Some shots were completeled literally in minutes including scene planning.
Of course I must admit I did do a second pass on many shots afterwards, little cleanups and tweaks.

I recently did ten minutes or so in about two weeks, which I can't show.
Unfortuantely I've never actually tried Cel Action so I can't compare the two, but for a tiny production team Moho rocks.
I do like TVP/Mirage and I like FBF in Harmony I use Toon Boom Storyboard a lot ( daily at the moment) even CSP is fun for FBF but has limited application without sound.
They all are fine apps. Moho makes sense if you don't like repetetive tasks.
Sequential offender.
my latest animations
User avatar
Greenlaw
Posts: 4461
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:45 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Greenlaw » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:13 pm

synthsin75 wrote: We're showing our age.
Ha, ha. Sigh. :)
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2019 Edtion
Lead Digital Animator, Dreamworks Animation

Image
User avatar
Greenlaw
Posts: 4461
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:45 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Greenlaw » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:31 pm

chucky wrote:Ouch Bauhaus! Yep I had Mirage and I lost my dongle ( had it stolen from hotel room with a bunch of other stuff) not realising that that whole thing had gone down. In fact I didn't even know that TVP existed.
I got it in a LightWave upgrade bundle back when it was called Aura. Then, I cross-graded to Mirage and eventually cross-graded to TVPaint. Funny thing is, I hardly used Aura-Mirage-TVP until fairly recently. It was my 11 year old, who used TVP to make her short film, who finally got me interested in using TVP for myself. For FBF work, I like it a lot...I find it very fast to work in, and I've been combining it with Moho in a personal project. Surprisingly, TVP still works with my Mirage dongle, the one that came with the metal dog-tag. :)

BTW, a few weeks ago, the TVP devs presented a seminar at DWA. They mentioned that they were thinking of dropping the need for the dongle in a future release.
Last edited by Greenlaw on Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
D.R. Greenlaw
Artist/Partner - Little Green Dog | Little Green Dog Channel on Vimeo | Greenlaw's Demo Reel 2019 Edtion
Lead Digital Animator, Dreamworks Animation

Image
User avatar
Francis Seven
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:57 am
Location: City of Domes

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Francis Seven » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:27 am

Andy Blazdell wrote: The Peppa team put a phenomenal amount of effort into making it all look "simple". That's why it's not just a commercial success but a critical one too, having won major prizes at Annecy, Cartoons On The Bay and BAFTA. Their peers in the industry appreciate just how complex simplicity can be.
Okay, so basically unless you have a trained professional award-winning team of hundreds, forget about buying CelAction 2D? Dang. I was really thinking I was going to be buying it. I was very near ordering it when I realised there are no video tutorials for it at all on YouTube and saw no open forum for discussing it. That was when I came and made my original post.

Believe me, I wanted very much to use it even though it doesn't have its own drawing tools. But if it's that complicated I guess I'll stick to Moho. I mean, if even the people who make it feel like warning me I'm about to face a moose, I'd better listen.
Andy Blazdell
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Moho 12: Has it caught up with CelAction 2D in 2018?

Post by Andy Blazdell » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:23 pm

Francis Seven wrote:I was really thinking I was going to be buying it. I was very near ordering it when I realised there are no video tutorials for it at all on YouTube and saw no open forum for discussing it. That was when I came and made my original post.
When you first emailed us on 2nd December 2014, you explained your level of experience and what you wanted to do with it, and I suggested Moho to you as a good place to start (and even gave you the link to this forum), and then, like now, I told you that if the scale of your project later required CelAction2D, we'd be happy to talk to you about it.

Unlike some other software companies, we don't feel comfortable selling to someone who doesn't yet need the extra tools that we offer. Part of my job is advising clients and potential clients of the best way to approach their project. I do this with honesty and integrity, even if it means we lose the sale to TVPaint, Adobe or in this case Smith Micro. Over the years we've seen a lot of customers we've "turned away" come back to us for their future projects that were a better fit for our products. We're in it for the long haul, not for short-term profit.

Since you already have Moho (I'm sure the people on this forum will help you get back into it quickly), I'd say see how you get on with that. You appear to be more interested in the early Peppa style so you should be fine.
Post Reply