TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

A place to discuss non-Moho software for use in animation. Video editors, audio editors, 3D modelers, etc.

Moderators: Fahim, Distinct Sun, Víctor Paredes, erey, Belgarath, slowtiger

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby Psmith » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:48 pm

The Whole Worm (and nothing but the Worm).

This is a pretty complete video of how to produce a crawling Worm that advances as he crawls and alters his facial expressions at the same time:



It's all done with the amazing Plastic Tool and very few keyframes (or Poses).


Have fun,

Greg Smith
Psmith
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:47 am
Location: Flagstaff, Arizona

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby exile » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:03 pm

Your tutorials are the most definitive I've found, both in content and as examples of how to do first-class online instruction.

It looks like the strength of OT is the plastic tool, which with this multi-layer method could animate complex characters. OT also has the cut-out skeleton method that's more familiar to us Anime Studio users, but besides being harder to set up than in AS it seems to have fewer features.

I predict Greg's humble worm will evolve into all sorts of mind-boggling characters. Thank you for sharing this exciting journey.
***********************
Steve

***********************
http://www.youtube.com/user/toonlyrics
Music Website: http://www.singadream.com
User avatar
exile
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:25 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby synthsin75 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:10 pm

Psmith wrote:


Wow. That's a ton more complex than Moho. From looking at your worm attempts in Moho, it looks like you weren't using regional bone binding (which constrains bone influence to their strength regions). So that made your animating harder.

But to each their own.
- Wes
Image
User avatar
synthsin75
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby exile » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:25 am

synthsin75 wrote:But to each their own.

Why so dismissive of a good animation?
***********************
Steve

***********************
http://www.youtube.com/user/toonlyrics
Music Website: http://www.singadream.com
User avatar
exile
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:25 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby synthsin75 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:50 am

exile wrote:
synthsin75 wrote:But to each their own.

Why so dismissive of a good animation?


Not dismissive of the animation, OT just seems more complex than Moho. But I understand if people need to seek out free or more fully fleshed out FBF software.
- Wes
Image
User avatar
synthsin75
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby exile » Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:40 pm

synthsin75 wrote:Not dismissive of the animation, OT just seems more complex than Moho. But I understand if people need to seek out free or more fully fleshed out FBF software.


Actually, AS/Moho is not all that easy, either. For example: Not long ago I bought a Udemy course on AS 11. The instructor was having all kinds of trouble getting things to work. In one video he messed up his character so badly it couldn't be repaired anymore. He just left it unedited online, by the way. You'd never catch Greg doing that, although his stuff is free. And he seems to give a damn about those people you mention who struggle to make ends meet.

Anime Studio is also an "I did that once, how does that go again" kind of software, especially if you have to take a break from it for a while. That's one reason why the forum is vital for it.

Before making any quick judgements, I plan to take a thorough look at what Toonz does well and where it has weaknesses. I'm looking forward to more interesting videos.
***********************
Steve

***********************
http://www.youtube.com/user/toonlyrics
Music Website: http://www.singadream.com
User avatar
exile
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:25 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby Psmith » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:20 pm

Exile & Wes:

Thank you Exile, for your praise and for your defense. I agree with you about the extensive utility of OpenToonz "Plastic" set of tools. There is a wide field of application open for producing very good and interesting character animation - made almost entirely with these tools.

I also agree with Wes, that re-creating the same "Worm Cycle" in Moho is much easier and faster to complete than in OpenToonz. And thanks, Wes, for the reminder of "Region Binding". Ever since "Flexi-Binding" was introduced some years ago, I relegated Region Binding to the attic as being an inferior method - and I never tried it on the Worm example. It does produce a superior result - I just tried it.

I here confess that I have become, after decades and decades of software use - a software junky - as well as connoisseur. Just ask my wife. I cannot resist reasonably priced software that matches my interests. I usually find a way to buy the ones I want. Even Moho - though it gives me a Twinge, right here, when I remember the upgrade price.

The "connoisseur" aspect of my addiction, however, is directed toward the simplest, least expensive method - with the least obtrusive interface available to get a task done - giving me the freedom to just work - un-annoyed. Everyone in the 3D world has praised Sculptris, for example, as being a stellar example of these aspects of software design.

Though the task of making a crawling worm is simpler and faster in Moho 12, the interface still bugs me - and one must remember the order of steps - and I believe there are too many mouse clicks - selecting and deselecting points, bones, settings, frame 0, etc. Lots of things to remember, as Exile states, when implementing things like additive cycles (I don't think they are working properly with Pin Bones - since aspects of their influence are magnified over time). And, yes, Moho 12 is one of those software applications that causes, if you don't use them for a while, all those necessary steps to fade from memory - and one must learn them again - usually the hard way.

Moho 12 also does not fall into the "inexpensive" category any longer either.

All of these considerations make OpenToonz look and feel like a breath of fresh air. Regarding the production of Frame-by-Frame animation - it is far superior in speed, simplicity and function to what is offered in Moho 12. It's Auto-Inbetweening is the best I've seen. The directness of the X-Sheet makes reuse of Drawings and sets of Drawings a pleasure.

The speed and simplicity of constructing a "Skeleton" using "Plastic" is more logical, unobtrusive and universal than constructing a similar thing in Moho 12. One important distinction is that OpenToonz automatically constructs a polygonal mesh around anything you draw - with parameters that are easy to set. All "Bone Deformation" acts upon this incredible Mesh - which can be designated in whole or in part - as "Flexible" or "Rigid". The deformation you can achieve with Plastic Nodes is far superior to what can be achieved with Moho 12's "Regions of Influence" - because of the highly optimized use of the Plastic Mesh and its functions.

But, I am worried about the continued development of OpenToonz. Though it is OpenSource software - those developers who currently control the development process have stated (on the Digital Video website) that their goals are VERY specific: To facilitate the animation process and workflows that currently exist in the Japanese animation production market. Why is this significant? Because the Japanese studios are highly focused on Frame-by-Frame workflows and techniques. I don't believe they use "Plastic" rigging or tools very much at all. They don't need to because animators are abundant and incredibly inexpensive.

Unless there arises a fanatic-like interest in OpenToonz from developers outside the Japanese development community - powerful tools like "Plastic" will not improve - and "Keyframe" based animation will remain rather obscure and difficult to use.

Maybe, at this point, we should pause and take a look at what Blender now offers for 2D animators. Yes, they have now included an incredible, simple to use set of keyframe based animation tools and techniques in Blender 2.78. I am almost breathless as I write this. We'll have to figure something out, however, regarding simplifying this 2D Animation Interface.

Herbert? Are you working on it?


Greg Smith
Psmith
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:47 am
Location: Flagstaff, Arizona

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby synthsin75 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:47 pm

exile wrote:
synthsin75 wrote:Not dismissive of the animation, OT just seems more complex than Moho. But I understand if people need to seek out free or more fully fleshed out FBF software.


Actually, AS/Moho is not all that easy, either. For example: Not long ago I bought a Udemy course on AS 11. The instructor was having all kinds of trouble getting things to work. In one video he messed up his character so badly it couldn't be repaired anymore. He just left it unedited online, by the way. You'd never catch Greg doing that, although his stuff is free. And he seems to give a damn about those people you mention who struggle to make ends meet.

Anime Studio is also an "I did that once, how does that go again" kind of software, especially if you have to take a break from it for a while. That's one reason why the forum is vital for it.

Before making any quick judgements, I plan to take a thorough look at what Toonz does well and where it has weaknesses. I'm looking forward to more interesting videos.


I can't account for bad instructors who are trying to teach without knowing the software well enough to correct their own mistakes (should probably get a refund if it's a paid course). No character in Moho is irreparable. And a lot of the "how did I do that last time" goes away the more frequently you use any software. If you don't use it frequently, of for prolonged periods, it makes sense to seek out cheaper alternatives. I think everyone understands that.

But I agree, Greg does great tutorials, whether for Moho, OT, or any other software.

Psmith wrote:...additive cycles (I don't think they are working properly with Pin Bones - since aspects of their influence are magnified over time).
...
Moho 12 also does not fall into the "inexpensive" category any longer either.


I though you had figured out your problem with additive cycles. And Moho is still inexpensive compared to its paid software competition.
- Wes
Image
User avatar
synthsin75
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby exile » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:31 pm

This is all interesting reading, but let's not distract Greg from creating more tutorials. I was able to recreate the worm almost exactly as shown, in spite of difficulties with things as simple as the fill tool (with "frame range" checked it worked), not to mention the five tries it took me to make "schematic" link things up right. Finally it's working "as advertised", and that's what counts. Perhaps the worm walk could have been done with a simpler rig, but the idea is to test possibilities of the software. I'm amazed at the amount of control that's possible, down to the size and shape of the pupils of the eye at any point in the animation. Well worth that extra effort to rig it.

Lots of things are still not clear to me, are there really patches to hide lines like in AS?

We can't know at this point how the software will develop, but evidently some people in the open source community have realized that this is potentially a biggie. Several improved versions since March, that isn't bad.

Of course you're right, Wes, that bad instruction reflects on the instructor and not the software. Smith Micro continues to work with the person in question, I hope he'll make good use of the chance they're giving him. Not everybody can be as adept at Moho as Victor Paredes, I understand that, but what that guy was offering was a joke. Had some entertainment value, though.
***********************
Steve

***********************
http://www.youtube.com/user/toonlyrics
Music Website: http://www.singadream.com
User avatar
exile
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:25 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby Psmith » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:21 am

Wes:

Yes, I thought I had corrected that cumulative error "advancement" - but it shows up each time - even with the first and last keyframes for all bones used being identical (but they are moved forward in the last frame).

Now, in the case of the worm crawling - the first and the last keyframes are not absolutely identical - because all the bones are moved forward to create the advancement. But, even using a straight line as a guide, it seems impossible to avoid imperfection - so, even though all bones are moved forward simultaneously, one or two bones exhibit exaggerated movement over the length of the entire animation - making portions of the worm get skinnier.

I've come to the conclusion that to save frustration, just copy and paste the keyframes for the length of time you need the Worm to crawl, advancing (moving the bones forward) for each completed cycle, using Onion Skins for reference. It's still a relatively quick procedure.


Greg Smith
Psmith
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:47 am
Location: Flagstaff, Arizona

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby synthsin75 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:11 am

Sorry, but you must be doing something wrong, Greg. You should be able to copy the first frame to the end and shift translate all bones to the final position of the first cycle, including matching any bone scale and rotation from first to last frame of the cycle.
- Wes
Image
User avatar
synthsin75
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby TzaTza4love » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:19 pm

I don't think OpenToonz is nearly as good as Toon Boom Harmony. It is pretty good if you like to draw your animation on paper and composite the film with a computer.
I would use OpenToonz if all the software I love became subscription only. I love that it is pretty powerful for a free animation software.
TzaTza4love
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:40 am

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby herbert123 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:02 am

TzaTza4love wrote:I don't think OpenToonz is nearly as good as Toon Boom Harmony. It is pretty good if you like to draw your animation on paper and composite the film with a computer.
I would use OpenToonz if all the software I love became subscription only. I love that it is pretty powerful for a free animation software.


I think it depends on the type of animation you're after, and the integration with other applications as well. For a paper-based workflow there is absolutely no question (for me) that OpenTOonz kicks Harmony's butt. The way OT works with files allows for a very open way to produce animations in combination with other frame-by-frame animation software like Krita and ClipStudio. It is also easy to integrate Moho into an OpenTOonz pipeline.

The strengths of OT are its nodal compositor, and the excellent particle effects. Both feel more mature to me than Harmony's.

Although cut-out animation is possible, I would never use OT for that. Nor do I think rigging in Harmony is a nice thing - it is surprisingly primitive for the "industry standard". For rigging either Moho Pro or any 3d software provide a far superior 2d rigging and animation process. But I understand that 2d animators in the industry prefer to work in one application.

I do agree that OT needs better bitmap drawing tools, and somewhat improved vector drawing tools - Harmony in particular provides better ones - although OT does have some vector tools that I think Harmony should have too. Give and take.

Aside from this, unless we are discussing Harmony Premium, OT is the better choice in my opinion. Harmony Essentials and even Advanced are ultimately too handicapped: no IK (which OT has), no nodal compositing, no particle effects, no nodal structure view, and other missing options... To think that even the Essentials version is still sold for around $500!

Anyway, OpenTOonz works splendid as an "InDesign" for animation production, I think - that is how I use it now. It is easy to bring in parts from various apps, and "bring it all together" in OT. Quite pleasant workflow, as a matter of fact.

Personally, I have a hard time understanding where Toonboom is going with Harmony: the new 3d integration requires Maya, and I felt that they should have spent all that energy and time on improving the basic tools. The graph editor still stinks compared to other software, for example. But I do understand that they listen to larger animation studios' wishes for the most part, and it seems those large studios wanted better 3d integration. But it feels so... awkward to me.

Compared, I think that Blender gets it right with its first version of integrated 2d animation tools. The only thing left would be easier Freestyle rendering, which makes it a doddle to get almost any type of stroke rendering. We'll see how that progresses.

Aren't we lucky to have all these options!? Brilliant. 2016 was a good year indeed for (2d) animation software.

And what is amazing is that any animator of any level now has access to open source and free tools (OpenTOonz, Blender, and Krita) that combine into a powerhouse studio tool set for 2d and/or 3d character animation (with both OT and Blender proven in large-scale commercial animation projects). Just super!
herbert123
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:06 am

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE

Postby exile » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:40 pm

After expert commentary like that, just an average user's two bits worth.

OT has simple skeleton animation as well as more sophisticated setups using the plastic tool. A clever combination of the two is presented in this tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyIxDkg1LQk

The results are comparable to bone animations in Anime Studio, but it does take some trouble to set up the rig. Using the paint rigid option on the mesh, you can emulate the smooth joints option for bitmap cutouts in Anime Studio, but with more than two bones.

Combine those possibilities with more complex use of the plastic tool in Greg's video, and you've got a lot of options.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkoX4kMRZlA&list=PLcmzjAREGptC2U4khyWwzz_W26fTt8OYn

A fellow named Simon has a series of tutorials on cutout animation in OT on YouTube that are close to rocket science, I haven't worked through those yet. But there are more possibilities. Phil Ray has a four-part series on key poses with automatic in-betweening. It's akin to point animation in AS, with the advantage of frame-by-frame control in the clean-up after tweening.

Part 1 of 4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXFBy-Abp5w

In other words, there are a number of possibilities for paperless animation in OT, many more than just assembling scanned drawings on a frame-by-frame basis. It's a new program for me and I'm not sure how far the adventure will take me, but it's worth more exploration.
***********************
Steve

***********************
http://www.youtube.com/user/toonlyrics
Music Website: http://www.singadream.com
User avatar
exile
 
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:25 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: TOONZ GOES OPEN SOURCE – a new version .1.1.2

Postby rave » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:47 pm

There is an update available – don't know what's new.
rave
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:44 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Other Software

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest