Does anyone use Retas Studio?

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basementProductions
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:28 pm

slowtiger wrote:
"Will the new kitchen furniture fit into my kitchen?"
"The measurements of all items are on the webpage."
"Yes, but will it fit into my kitchen?"
Hey guys, be nice! :P
I do know a bit about computers and the minimum requirements rarely ever constitute a good cooking environment :)
They should have a page like Blender does; minimum/medium/production level.

Thanks again for all your help. Now I know how exactly I'm going to go about things.
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JetT
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by JetT » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:22 pm

jahnocli wrote:So....what are you doing on an Anime Studio forum?
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basementProductions wrote:Your right about the painting, we really need to compare 'tweening, shooting and rendering times between the three, as well, if we're going for comparisons
No you don't, the only thing you compare is quality, the consumer won't care as to how quickly something was produced and enthusiasts will scorn you for cheating. The stuff you're talking about is compromises you make when you get told what your budget is. Best case scenario you do actual frame-by-frame animation in-house, worst case scenario you resort to automatic tweening and outsourcing. If you do the latter then say goodbye to your "hand" because in 50 years time nobody will be looking at those animations being able to identify individual animators in scenes like they do on Sakugabooru, but they will be able to identify the software used instead, it's like identifying actors, stuntmen or directors in a movie, instead of human hands you have algorithms.

Marc Davis!
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Yutaka Nakamura!
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Hiroyuki Imaishi!
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If you're looking to do the above then just pickup TVP, it will make your life a lot easier, get the demo. If you can't afford it then get Sketchbook Pro to practice with. I could recommend Retas all day for this stuff, but all it takes is for the TVP devs to add in one little macro and Retas becomes history.

If you want to do stuff like Dexters Lab, Gravity Falls, Powerpuff Girls, Samurai Jack then take your pick, you have Harmony, AS, CelAction and so on that solve all the problems for that style.

Not sure if people are starting to hate in this thread so it may be time to abandon. :mrgreen:

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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by synthsin75 » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:04 am

basementProductions wrote:Very well put, synthsin75, I never really thought about the independents' side before, only large studios; but it wouldn't make sense for someone with even less resources to pick something that was even more tedious...

Maybe I was being a little silly back there. :oops:

Thank you for setting me straight.

Your right about the painting, we really need to compare 'tweening, shooting and rendering times between the three, as well, if we're going for comparisons; and as something to demonstrate to Krita dev should they choose to mimic their competitors; I mean, they want to be "faster than Photoshop" right? :P
(I say "we" but I didn't do anything...)

I think I will probably buy AS first and see if It won't do what I need, since I can get a copy of ASP 10 for $40 and it will take a little longer than a 30 day trial to figure out, I fear. Plus, I won't have to learn Japanese just yet :wink:
I'll come back and add to this when I get done, just so that it's an even comparison between AS, TVP and Retas. It might be a while though, a long while...

Now, I know the system requirements are right on MS's page, but do you think it will run well on my build?
As always, you mileage may vary. But for $40 you can't really go too wrong. What you learn in AS10 will serve you well if you ever decide to upgrade to 11 (if you find you need the new FBF and drawing features). Hell, the price for 11 may be cheaper by the time you become proficient with 10.

All I can say about system requirements are from my own experience. I ran AS10 on a Windows XP 32bit dual core laptop with less than a gig of ram with only a few minor issues.
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:17 am

Thanks, synthsin75, that's all I needed to hear! Now I can buy with confidence. :D
JetT wrote: Image
Image

I Laughed Out Loud at these; perfectly appropriate for this forum! :)
JetT wrote: No you don't, the only thing you compare is quality, the consumer won't care as to how quickly something was produced and enthusiasts will scorn you for cheating...
*sigh* Okay, before I go on haitus here and knuckle down to my own first projects, I'll put my two cents on that.

The same thing, 'cheating', floats around in comics all the time, "enthusiasts" thinking new digital techniques are "half-assed" or "shortcuts".
To be honest, I could give two flying f's about what those guys think about the process; they're not over here actually drawing it, and if they don't want to support it they don't have to buy into it; they are the "consumers". I'm sure others here feel the same way to some extent.

Maybe that's the wrong way to put it, more like, I would try to publish quality content in the most efficient way possible, regardless of whether or not it's the "true" way to do it, according to some.

What I do care about is the bottom line: How much money, time, and skill it will take me, possibly alongside a few like-minded individuals, to execute this idea in this medium, using x tool?

It aggravates me when people complain about quality, when they don't realize the budgetary and time constraints imposed on these series, creators, and studios, both in America, Europe, and Japan. Especially when I think of myself trying to start up on virtually nothing as a budget.
JetT wrote: If you're looking to do the above then just pickup TVP...
If you want to do stuff like Dexters Lab, Gravity Falls, Powerpuff Girls, Samurai Jack then take your pick...
That's a really simple way to put it, and probably answers the questions that most people ask when they are shopping for animation software.

What will probably happen with me is I will end up with AS and TVP, or AS and Retas or all three, eventually, and use each for different aspects or different projects, like slowtiger was explaining toward the beginning of the thread.
JetT wrote: Not sure if people are starting to hate in this thread so it may be time to abandon. :mrgreen:
That's no reason! haterz gonna hate. :wink:

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Thanks again, everybody, for all the help you've provided, I was really lost before I came here, and you guys (and gals?) pushed me to think about animation the right way. I will be sure to be involved in the community in the future, if I'm welcome.
Last edited by basementProductions on Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by synthsin75 » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:19 am

JetT wrote:No you don't, the only thing you compare is quality, the consumer won't care as to how quickly something was produced and enthusiasts will scorn you for cheating. The stuff you're talking about is compromises you make when you get told what your budget is. Best case scenario you do actual frame-by-frame animation in-house, worst case scenario you resort to automatic tweening and outsourcing. If you do the latter then say goodbye to your "hand" because in 50 years time nobody will be looking at those animations being able to identify individual animators in scenes like they do on Sakugabooru, but they will be able to identify the software used instead, it's like identifying actors, stuntmen or directors in a movie, instead of human hands you have algorithms.
I'm sorry, but this is a load of crap. Algorithms...really? Do you think the machines are going to take over too?

You can't honestly tell me that you can identify the software used in either of the AS examples I posted earlier. If you claim you can, you are lying. Now I could understand if you say you can identify a Flash animation, and maybe (if I'm being generous) I could assume you don't know enough about AS to distinguish it from whatever vector animation software you may be familiar with. But you can't deny your own eyes...or maybe you couldn't be bothered to look.

It is obvious that you are, at the very least, married to the traditional FBF workflow. It is your prerogative to view anything else as "cheats", but that simply is not the reality when it comes to quality of final output. The real question is whether those AS examples are the quality and style he may wish to create and he does not want to spend countless years drawing FBF.
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:32 am

synthsin75 wrote: It is obvious that you are, at the very least, married to the traditional FBF workflow. It is your prerogative to view anything else as "cheats", but that simply is not the reality when it comes to quality of final output. The real question is whether those AS examples are the quality and style he may wish to create and he does not want to spend countless years drawing FBF.
See, I thought I was married to it as well; it only took the three weeks I spent here to change my mind. Now I am seriously considering AS, which I dismissed previously. And, yes, they are, more or less, what I'm after, namely 「Teku Teku Temps」. If I really see the necessity of doing FBF, after this, Retas will be where I go, as it's what's commonly used over there and it's cheaper.
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by synthsin75 » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:16 am

Until AS11 included FBF, I have used Plastic Animation Paper (free version) to do FBF roughs as a guide for AS vectors. Best of both worlds, IMO.
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:42 am

synthsin75 wrote:Until AS11 included FBF, I have used Plastic Animation Paper (free version) to do FBF roughs as a guide for AS vectors. Best of both worlds, IMO.
Hey hey.. they are starting a new website and a kickstarter now, apparently.
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by JetT » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:50 am

basementProductions wrote:Maybe that's the wrong way to put it, more like, I would try to publish quality content in the most efficient way possible, regardless of whether or not it's the "true" way to do it, according to some.
Not sure where you're going with this, there is only one way to do FBF animation, clue's in the title. If you want to immitate it then that's up to you and not my field.
basementProductions wrote:It aggravates me when people complain about quality, when they don't realize the budgetary and time constraints imposed on these series, creators, and studios, both in America, Europe, and Japan. Especially when I think of myself trying to start up on virtually nothing as a budget.
The only thing most Japanese directors worry about is quality because they have a long-term outlook. If it's high quality then you can sell it continously and you become a household name. How many people do you think are still buying that Animated Titanic Movie over say Akira or The Iron Giant?

One of the reasons Attack on Titan was so popular is because people were gobsmacked by the animation, plastering gifs all over social media and now people won't stop referring to Under the Dog for looking like a Hollywood blockbuster, a crowdfunded project. It's fanservice, you do it for your viewers, just as in The Matrix: Reloaded they couldn't find a stretch of highway that could be closed and used for filming long enough they didn't just drop the scene they went and built their own.

All you need to worry about is personal ability. This was made by five people and only two did the animation using TVP:



This was made by TRIGGER under a Gov't scheme for training animators and they had a successful crowdfunding campaign for a second episode:


synthsin75 wrote:I'm sorry, but this is a load of crap. Algorithms...really? Do you think the machines are going to take over too?
What do you think the interpolation is? Fairy dust?
synthsin75 wrote:You can't honestly tell me that you can identify the software used in either of the AS examples I posted earlier. If you claim you can, you are lying.
I can, sorry, clueless as to why you're so upset. People say on the forum in your signature AS is for people who can't draw and all the rest yet you attack me over nothing just because I think trying to immitate FBF is cheap? So do most people.
synthsin75 wrote:Now I could understand if you say you can identify a Flash animation, and maybe (if I'm being generous) I could assume you don't know enough about AS to distinguish it from whatever vector animation software you may be familiar with. But you can't deny your own eyes...or maybe you couldn't be bothered to look.
AS is unique to Flash, Harlequin, CelAction or Harmony just as they are also to eachother. Just as much as I can tell an AS animation most of the time I can also tell a CA animation because they interpolate differently. This may be due to the fact I use them. Jim Lee the artist who draws Batman made a point about drawing gorillas, that you shouldn't worry so much because not many people know what a gorilla looks like so they can't tell you it's wrong; I specifically talked about animation enthusiasts, people who can tell for example in classical animation whether they used ink or charcoal on the cel. Also why the team behind Avatar The Last Airbender knew who they were pitching to.
synthsin75 wrote:It is obvious that you are, at the very least, married to the traditional FBF workflow.
I thought that was made clear. I'm a FBF animator, I draw each frame by hand. This stuff, something no vector software can ever interpolate:

Image

But don't make this a thing about FBF vs something else, the cut-out/rigged/FBF hybrid dream sequence animations in Kung Fu Panda I thought were better than the CGI, and I like CGI.
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by synthsin75 » Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:23 am

JetT wrote:
synthsin75 wrote:I'm sorry, but this is a load of crap. Algorithms...really? Do you think the machines are going to take over too?
What do you think the interpolation is? Fairy dust?
Yeah, you were talking about human input, not interpolation. Do you really think interpolation completely divorces the results from human input? That is naive at best. You can find countless examples online of both good and bad animation using interpolated tweening. The difference is animation chops, not specific software used. A good animator can do the exact same thing in any software.
synthsin75 wrote:You can't honestly tell me that you can identify the software used in either of the AS examples I posted earlier. If you claim you can, you are lying.
I can, sorry, clueless as to why you're so upset. People say on the forum in your signature AS is for people who can't draw and all the rest yet you attack me over nothing just because I think trying to immitate FBF is cheap? So do most people.
The people who say AS is for people who can't draw are only those who can't draw. There are plenty of talented artists using AS. It is very hypocritical of you to claim most people think labor-saving technologies are cheap after you just said that only the final product matters. The final product in those examples has sold the OP on AS.
synthsin75 wrote:Now I could understand if you say you can identify a Flash animation, and maybe (if I'm being generous) I could assume you don't know enough about AS to distinguish it from whatever vector animation software you may be familiar with. But you can't deny your own eyes...or maybe you couldn't be bothered to look.
AS is unique to Flash, Harlequin, CelAction or Harmony just as they are also to eachother. Just as much as I can tell an AS animation most of the time I can also tell a CA animation because they interpolate differently. This may be due to the fact I use them. Jim Lee the artist who draws Batman made a point about drawing gorillas, that you shouldn't worry so much because not many people know what a gorilla looks like so they can't tell you it's wrong; I specifically talked about animation enthusiasts, people who can tell for example in classical animation whether they used ink or charcoal on the cel. Also why the team behind Avatar The Last Airbender knew who they were pitching to.
Then let's see some of your animation work in these various software, including AS.
synthsin75 wrote:It is obvious that you are, at the very least, married to the traditional FBF workflow.
I thought that was made clear. I'm a FBF animator, I draw each frame by hand. This stuff, something no vector software can ever interpolate:
You seem to be confused. Interpolation does not limit an animator. In AS, for example, you are free to swap rigs/vectors, add manual inbetweens, do FBF (yes, even in older versions) in vectors or images, and mix these freely.

At the very least, it is clear that you are biased when it comes to comparing any other workflow to FBF. That's your prerogative, but very few animation fans are the snob you claim to be.
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:49 am

This got pretty heated for no reason.

OK, I want to say first that I am not leaning one way or another as far as interpolation vs. FBF or any other workflow so long as there are good examples of small studios/individuals producing decent quality work. To that end here are two examples of a workflow similar to the one I was attempting to explain before the kettle exploded and I suddenly flip-flopped to AS (read in the descriptions). :wink:

They took the easy way out on a couple little details, I noticed, and it's not too movey, but you can see where it could have went.


How about those awesome backgrounds in Manga Studio??

JetT wrote: Not sure where you're going with this, there is only one way to do FBF animation, clue's in the title. If you want to immitate it then that's up to you and not my field.
What I mean is, I don't see why interpolated animation can't very well produce the same results as FBF if you are willing to tweak the points enough, the question for me all along has been, "Would I actually be saving time if I attempt to replicate the qualities of FBF styles in AS?" Replicate and not imitate.
My original hangup was whether AS would run on my machine, and the price, and that I wasn't wanting to learn interpolation or vector drawing.
JetT wrote: The only thing most Japanese directors worry about is quality because they have a long-term outlook. If it's high quality then you can sell it continously and you become a household name. How many people do you think are still buying that Animated Titanic Movie over say Akira or The Iron Giant?
I see what you're saying and it makes sense, but like any other media, quality isn't ever the only factor. I don't know, but Gainax produced enough decent work in the past 30 years to be extremely well known, I think, but time and again they've had to close up shop due to lack of funding, or so I've heard.
JetT wrote:It's fanservice, you do it for your viewers, just as in The Matrix: Reloaded they couldn't find a stretch of highway that could be closed and used for filming long enough they didn't just drop the scene they went and built their own.
I see what you did there :)
True enough, I guess.
JetT wrote:All you need to worry about is personal ability. This was made by five people and only two did the animation using TVP:
I've seen this before... I wondered what they used to make it...
I'm going to take what you said and apply it to AS, it's your ability with the software, I think.
JetT wrote: This was made by TRIGGER under a Gov't scheme for training animators and they had a successful crowdfunding campaign for a second episode:
Now, I don't see why this absolutely couldn't be done with a vector, object-based software, whether AS is it though might be another story.
JetT wrote:Jim Lee the artist who draws Batman made a point about drawing gorillas, that you shouldn't worry so much because not many people know what a gorilla looks like so they can't tell you it's wrong;
One artist who drew Batman on a few runs, one of my favorite mainstream pencillers; Also, for those who care, the current CCO of DC Comics. :D
I don't really agree with this, nor did I know he thought this way; it's kind of disappointing, coming from him. If you want to draw a gorilla a certain way, why bother worrying about the reader? vice versa if you are worried about the reader being turned off by a weird looking gorilla, then shouldn't you make every attempt to get it straight? I realize the gorilla is a metaphor, but it applies.

Christ, Jim, what else are you telling the kids who look up to you?? :lol:

I'm going to mention again that starting tomorrow, I'm going to be off of here and working on getting my act together for buying AS and learning it.
Don't take this the wrong way, but writing these posts takes a long time! :(
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by JetT » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:34 am

synthsin75 wrote:Yeah, you were talking about human input, not interpolation. Do you really think interpolation completely divorces the results from human input? That is naive at best. You can find countless examples online of both good and bad animation using interpolated tweening.
You create two keyframes and AS has an algorithm to interpolate the inbetweens, it's own problem solving technique, that is its fingerprint. Nothing wrong with this process but it will apply a fingerprint of some sort of its own just like an inbetween assistant or cleanup artist would.
synthsin75 wrote:It is very hypocritical of you to claim most people think labor-saving technologies are cheap after you just said that only the final product matters.
It's not cheap if you apply your talents to it, but you have to admit it is cheap when people don't and use it as a crutch which is often the case.
synthsin75 wrote:The final product in those examples has sold the OP on AS.
Fair enough and I'm not going to sit here and critique someones work, but compare it to what I just showed you from TRIGGER, which is more animated? Think about what part of AS may limit this style of animation objectively then we move forward and solve those problems and build AS rather than defending its weaknesses all the time.
synthsin75 wrote:You seem to be confused. Interpolation does not limit an animator. In AS, for example, you are free to swap rigs/vectors, add manual inbetweens, do FBF (yes, even in older versions) in vectors or images, and mix these freely.
I never said you couldn't though, neither have I once attacked AS. Apply what I said to other vector software, it's the same principle.
basementProductions wrote:Now, I don't see why this absolutely couldn't be done with a vector, object-based software, whether AS is it though might be another story.
By all means. I've tried it using CACANi which has the most advanced interpolation and after having to check all regions are closed, fixing errors, regenerating frames, I was freaking out.

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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by dkwroot » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:39 am

Anime Studio is extremely good at animating casual scenes that have a slower pace. These are scenes where each frame doesn't drastically differ from the last which will allow the program to interpolate the inbetweens very easily. AS is fantastic at this kind of thing, because the user has absolute control over how the interpolation occurs. We can control timing and even individual point placement which allows for fluid 'non-mechanical' movement.

Anime Studio's 'weakness' would be how it handles extreme frame-by-frame movement. These are movements where each frame is drastically different from the last which makes interpolation impossible. Since AS is a vectoring program, the user would have to import the sketches and then manually vector them. This is definitely slower than just drawing them in a raster program.

The user could take SlowerTiger's advice and just use a FBF raster program in conjunction with AS. They would then handle casual scenes with AS and action scenes with a FBF program. I think this is a really efficient workflow.

The alternate method would be to handle everything in AS. There are two advantages to doing this. The first is that since Anime Studio is a vector program, you can always increase the resolution of your product to meet changing TV standards.

The second advantage is that any animation made within Anime Studio can be modified and reused which can save a massive amount of time. You could even switch characters or create new hybrid motions from existing animations. This probably wouldn't go over well with traditional FBF folks, but it's less about elitism and more about studio efficiency.

Anime Studio is not perfect by any measure, but the developers are working very hard at improving it. I think you'll be amazed by how much the program improves version to version. :D
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:55 am

JetT wrote:
basementProductions wrote:Now, I don't see why this absolutely couldn't be done with a vector, object-based software, whether AS is it though might be another story.
By all means. I've tried it using CACANi which has the most advanced interpolation and after having to check all regions are closed, fixing errors, regenerating frames, I was freaking out.
LOL Yeah, I could see that, I would be hesitant to buy CACANi at $217 since it's still in development.
dkwroot wrote:Anime Studio is not perfect by any measure, but the developers are working very hard at improving it. I think you'll be amazed by how much the program improves version to version. :D
I can tell, I've been following the releases since 9.0 and it has added quite a lot of stuff! :)
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by slowtiger » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:21 am

I seem to repeat myself over the years. But it is necessarry:

1. Nobody is obliged to do a whole project in just one software. Some people have to, because of budget. Some do to prove something, like the whole demo scene. Any experienced animator will combine what gives her the best result in given time.

2. Interpolation is something every inbetweener does each day. That they do in their mind what software does in your computer doesn't make any difference in the result. Of course software inbetweens all the points or objects it's applied to, whereas a human inbetweener concentrates on what's important - the rest will do.

3. Nobody is obliged to not tweak what software offers. I can easily spot beginner's work in animation because they use the software presets and not much else. Not the algorithm is bad, but using it without thinking.

4. There's no such thing as a scale of animation techniques ordered by "quality". On one's is not better than on two's, an inbetweened head turn is not better than a pose switch. There is the artistic decision of which animation style is best suited for a project, and the the execution of that.

5. For any 10 animators complaining about certain functions in their software there's only 1 concentrating on storytelling and strong poses. Try to be that one.
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