Does anyone use Retas Studio?

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JetT
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by JetT » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:50 pm

slowtiger wrote:That Retas example looks like it uses jaggy lines, whereas TVP uses anti-aliased lines. Of course it's easier for software to fill aliased areas. Can you say anything about Retas' image resolution? Like, is it something more to 4K which later is rendered in 2K, which I suspect?
You can set a custom DPI in Retas but I'm not sure it does anything, 72 DPI rendered looks just as smooth as 144 DPI. Those lines may have no AA but once they are rendered in CoreRetas they look smooth.

For example:

Image

On the left is the image from Stylos, on the right is the image painted with PaintMan and being previewed in CoreRetas render window.

Even if I made a TVPaint canvas 10x the size of the original intended format it wouldn't change anything because even if I paint with anti-aliasing turned off I get the exact same result. Rounded edges, sudden cornering, sudden straights.

TVP CTG (No AA on CTG or Sketch Panel RGB):

Image

And a real-time example TVP (No AA):

Image

The only way that I've been happy with so far in TVPaint is to create a mask and then changing the color mode on the shadow line layer. But I lose control over what color the shadow can be.

TVP (fill the shadow lines layer with the same blue to create a mask and 'absorb' those lines as part of the shadow shape):

Image
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basementProductions
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:25 pm

slowtiger wrote:That Retas example looks like it uses jaggy lines, whereas TVP uses anti-aliased lines. Of course it's easier for software to fill aliased areas. Can you say anything about Retas' image resolution? Like, is it something more to 4K which later is rendered in 2K, which I suspect?
Well, as far as i can tell you can work with frames up to 20,000 x 20,000, and export in up to 8000x8000
CELSYS wrote: Higher image resolution for HDTV and film recording up to 20,000 X 20,000 pixels. Camera size up to 8000 X 8000 pixels.
Now, whether the program doesn't go *blegh* and die when you try to export in what would be 7K (i guess?), is another story :P
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JetT
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by JetT » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:41 pm

For Krita (any dev really) I'm compiling some stuff together. I made these three videos comparing TVPaint (Standard), CACANi and Retas in a time trial by painting the same anime style image. Harmony failed completely here, I can't even begin to replicate a Retas workflow with it, it actually annoyed me a lot and suddenly felt like I was using something from 1995.

RETAS
Quality: 5/5
Speed: 5/5



Retas is clearly built for this stuff, there was quite literally nothing to think about other than what color separation line you wanted to replace. It also handles itself fairly well. Any unfilled areas are quickly filled with the Extender Tool which can pull color into unfilled areas only, that saves you from having to color pick and fix carefully.

TVPaint
Quality: 5/5
Speed: 5/5



TVPaint was interesting, I kept getting a mental block as I had more than just clicking areas to think about. It was just as accurate as Retas, to the pixel, due to the way I 'absorb' separation lines to create shape masks. It is the easiest to manage of the three, any errors can be corrected with ease due to proper layer management. Something I thought about after I finished was mimicking the Extender Tool in Retas by using a Smudge Brush, that would save time since if you spotted any unfilled areas later you wouldn't need to color pick but rather just click and drag the color.

CACANi
Quality: 4/5
Speed: 5/5



CACANi was rather simple being vector, only one error right at the end due to a messed up stroke close during cleanup. However, you must make sure all your lines and regions are closed, I suspect any time saved during the color process is negated due to this, there are no automatic gap closing features like in Harmony yet for the fill tool. Unfortunetely it is not as accurate as Retas or TVPaint, CACANi will only fill up to the central vector line, not the vector stroke. Not a problem unless you're a perfectionist and it's certinaly better than using the CTG layer in TVPaint but I mark it down nonetheless since this is about producing as close as possible an identical image to Retas, which it failed to do.

Here is a comparison image, one is from TVPaint and the other is from Retas, but can you tell which is which? I was surprised by the result.*

Image

If I were to recommend one of them then I'd recommend TVPaint Standard. I didn't use the CTG layer, just the standard Fill Tool. It certainly isn't the fastest, but it is the most versatile and when you look at other aspects of producing animation from planning, sketching, cleanup and timing it is the cream of the crop, the swiss army knife for hand drawn animation.

In regards to recommending Retas for you basement, the only part of Retas I can recommend is PaintMan and that is only if you're looking at producing very specific styles very, very quickly. You can do them just as well in TVPaint albeit slower, I would suggest just saving up for TVPaint Standard while you study animation. Who knows, by then TVPaint may have implemented a way to handle the same color trace abilities as Retas and allow you to use your own RAM, then I wouldn't be recommending Retas at all.

*(the one on the left is the Retas image)*
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basementProductions
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:48 pm

JetT wrote: I made these three videos comparing TVPaint (Standard), CACANi and Retas in a time trial by painting the same anime style image.
Wow, you are really fast! You must know all of these programs quite well at this point.
JetT wrote: Here is a comparison image, one is from TVPaint and the other is from Retas, but can you tell which is which? I was surprised by the result.
I can't tell the difference, the lines are just as clear and the colors are exactly matching!
JetT wrote:In regards to recommending Retas for you basement, the only part of Retas I can recommend is PaintMan and that is only if you're looking at producing very specific styles very, very quickly. You can do them just as well in TVPaint albeit slower, I would suggest just saving up for TVPaint Standard while you study animation. Who knows, by then TVPaint may have implemented a way to handle the same color trace abilities as Retas and allow you to use your own RAM, then I wouldn't be recommending Retas at all.
I see what you're saying, and by the time I get the money, things may have changed drastically, both in the market and my thinking. However the facts stand that, currently, Retas is cheaper than TVP and fastest out of the three for coloring, and probably rendering, and its automatic color tracing function could mean the difference between coloring a project taking me a little less than a year or more than three. It also has the lowest hardware requirements, though that might be due to its lack of object-based functions, and video effects. I am also not in a position to uprgrade my machine over what I listed in the first post. either.

I really do hope they implement some of these features in Krita, though, then I could skate by without buying anything :P

I appreciate all the demonstrations and advice, guys; previously, I never heard much about TVP, now I see that it's one of the best out there,

Now I wonder how fast one could color that picture in AS. :?
And how does the full version of Digicel Flipbook compare to the rest? I understand that it was used by Disney animators for their productions until 2009 with The Princess and the Frog. It looks fairly intuitive, and costs less than the full version of TVP but a good bit more than the standard version.
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basementProductions
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:41 pm

So, this is what I'm looking at as far as workflow goes.

Project Management: 2-Plan
Animation Engine: Retas HD
BG Painting and Images: Manga Studio EX 5/Clip Studio EX, The GIMP
Linear Video Editing: Free Lightworks
Video FX: Free Blackmagic Fusion
Music Production: LMMS
Audio Editing and FX: Audacity
CGI and Physics: Blender

I'll probably derive a lot of sounds from freesound.org

Please tell me what you guys think; if you have any suggestions; if you know any good places for stock cgi, sound FX, or VSTs.
Or if there's anything seriously wrong with this layout, I would like to know before I break my machine :P

Once again thank you for all the help.
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jahnocli
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by jahnocli » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:42 pm

basementProductions wrote:So, this is what I'm looking at as far as workflow goes.

Project Management: 2-Plan
Animation Engine: Retas HD
BG Painting and Images: Manga Studio EX 5/Clip Studio EX, The GIMP
Linear Video Editing: Free Lightworks
Video FX: Free Blackmagic Fusion
Music Production: LMMS
Audio Editing and FX: Audacity
CGI and Physics: Blender

I'll probably derive a lot of sounds from freesound.org

Please tell me what you guys think; if you have any suggestions; if you know any good places for stock cgi, sound FX, or VSTs.
Or if there's anything seriously wrong with this layout, I would like to know before I break my machine :P

Once again thank you for all the help.
So....what are you doing on an Anime Studio forum?
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basementProductions
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:39 pm

jahnocli wrote: So....what are you doing on an Anime Studio forum?
synthsin75 wrote: Why then are you posting on a specifically Anime Studio forum? Let me guess. You couldn't find another animation software forum that was anywhere near as active.
Basically, this. :D

I wouldn't mind at all if someone could come in and point out where Anime Studio provides an advantage over some of these other pieces in its process of keying, 'tweening, shooting, or coloring.
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JaMike
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by JaMike » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:31 am

basementProductions wrote: I wouldn't mind at all if someone could come in and point out where Anime Studio provides an advantage over some of these other pieces in its process of keying, 'tweening, shooting, or coloring.
Er... you don't have to draw and paint every single frame with Anime Studio. In fact, with the right setup, you only have to do one "drawing" per character, ever (in a perfect world). That's a pretty big advantage over your method. Have you watched any of the Anime Studio tutorial videos, especially the ones by Selgin or Victor Parades?

The advantages are all there, right in front of you. :)
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basementProductions
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:01 am

JaMike wrote: Er... you don't have to draw and paint every single frame with Anime Studio. In fact, with the right setup, you only have to do one "drawing" per character, ever (in a perfect world). That's a pretty big advantage over your method. Have you watched any of the Anime Studio tutorial videos, especially the ones by Selgin or Victor Parades?

The advantages are all there, right in front of you. :)
No, actually I don't believe I have watched their tutorials specifically; thanks for references I'll have to check them out.
My main concern when I talk of advantages is time and used computer resources, if the software has a heavy interface, then rendering will become a hassle, from my understanding.
I am also not very comfortable with vectors and object drawing at this point. But I will definitely have to look at some tutorials for AS before I buy anything.
In case I eventually decide to buy AS, what is the difference between Pro 10 and Pro 11?
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by synthsin75 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:37 am

basementProductions wrote:
JaMike wrote: Er... you don't have to draw and paint every single frame with Anime Studio. In fact, with the right setup, you only have to do one "drawing" per character, ever (in a perfect world). That's a pretty big advantage over your method. Have you watched any of the Anime Studio tutorial videos, especially the ones by Selgin or Victor Parades?

The advantages are all there, right in front of you. :)
No, actually I don't believe I have watched their tutorials specifically; thanks for references I'll have to check them out.
My main concern when I talk of advantages is time and used computer resources, if the software has a heavy interface, then rendering will become a hassle, from my understanding.
I am also not very comfortable with vectors and object drawing at this point. But I will definitely have to look at some tutorials for AS before I buy anything.
In case I eventually decide to buy AS, what is the difference between Pro 10 and Pro 11?
Since you seem to have no interest in looking for this info yourself, why should anyone here be interested to help you? Tutorials and versions differences are easy to find.
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basementProductions
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:20 am

No, I am not that lazy.
I am wanting the opinions of experienced users, here.

Let me reword the question; from the opinion of someone who has used AS for professional jobs, unlike myself; is AS capable of producing results of the same quality as the traditional techniques we have been discussing in the same amount of time, with its own processes? how much time can auto-inbetweening save if you're trying to eliminate the "cutout" feel to it?
And were there a lot of big changes made with the new version, enough that you'd buy the upgrade at near-retail price, not to mention that it's higher than CACANi and Retas?

I will compare AS and the others myself before I purchase (which will require trying the trials and looking at tutorials), but like I said time is an issue for me, and I'm juggling doing research on these softwares with my own studies and work and attempting to procure funds to buy whatever animation piece I end up with...

I'm sorry, but please bear with me if I'm not contributing much to the forum.

If anyone is interested and I end up getting Retas after all; I will write tutorials on how to use it, provided I sufficiently master it myself and they would be welcome here...

But, there is no Retas forum, it doesn't exist.
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synthsin75
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by synthsin75 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:02 am

basementProductions wrote:No, I am not that lazy.
I am wanting the opinions of experienced users, here.

Let me reword the question; from the opinion of someone who has used AS for professional jobs, unlike myself; is AS capable of producing results of the same quality as the traditional techniques we have been discussing in the same amount of time, with its own processes? how much time can auto-inbetweening save if you're trying to eliminate the "cutout" feel to it?
You already know that AS can produce anime without any feel of cutout style, since you've already seen these:



I don't think you can argue their quality.

Now, do you really think that these people chose a software that would require MORE work and time? If you run a large studio, you might be able to get quotes accepted that allow you to have the man-hours to do traditional animation, but even then, such animation is out-sourced to countries where the man-hours are very much cheaper. But these two examples were small, independent studios. Certainly they did the exact same research on software that you are currently attempting. Since they obviously have the animation chops, it is likely they came to AS from one of its competitors, and the selling points would have been speed and ease of use (for people who either couldn't afford to out-source the work or just wanted to do it themselves).


At some point, you need to simply try them yourself. So far, we've only seen painting demos from Retas, but that means nothing if you have to create every frame of animation yourself. So where are the actual animation demos? When you get around to trying these software for yourself (and learn what many here already know...and don't have the time to walk you through for free), be sure to post your findings. That way the next person doing the same research can save time.
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basementProductions
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by basementProductions » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:21 am

Very well put, synthsin75, I never really thought about the independents' side before, only large studios; but it wouldn't make sense for someone with even less resources to pick something that was even more tedious...

Maybe I was being a little silly back there. :oops:

Thank you for setting me straight.

Your right about the painting, we really need to compare 'tweening, shooting and rendering times between the three, as well, if we're going for comparisons; and as something to demonstrate to Krita dev should they choose to mimic their competitors; I mean, they want to be "faster than Photoshop" right? :P
(I say "we" but I didn't do anything...)

I think I will probably buy AS first and see if It won't do what I need, since I can get a copy of ASP 10 for $40 and it will take a little longer than a 30 day trial to figure out, I fear. Plus, I won't have to learn Japanese just yet :wink:
I'll come back and add to this when I get done, just so that it's an even comparison between AS, TVP and Retas. It might be a while though, a long while...

Now, I know the system requirements are right on MS's page, but do you think it will run well on my build?
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jahnocli
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by jahnocli » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:59 am

basementProductions wrote:...Now, I know the system requirements are right on MS's page, but do you think it will run well on my build?
Try it. Jeez, how much hand-holding do you need?
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Re: Does anyone use Retas Studio?

Post by slowtiger » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:10 am

Now, I know the system requirements are right on MS's page, but do you think it will run well on my build?
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