Easy to learn and powerful 3D anim. software

jorgy · Post by **jorgy** » Tue May 31, 2005 5:20 pm

Rasheed wrote:And it is even not necessary to have character animation to tell a good story, see this (18 Mb zipped) movie, called The warrior's Prayer by Mauro Frau. It contains only stills (cleverly animated) and is very captivating. Of course, the story teller's voice and the sound track are superb.

I was unable to get your link to work for me, so after a big of googling I came up with:

http://www.3dexcellence.com/articlemfrau.php

After the interview with the creator, there is a link to the movie at the bottom as well as a link to his site.

This style reminds me of the PBS show here in the US called "Reading Rainbow". Books are read by narrators, while the illustrations of the book are crossfaded, paned, and zoomed. It sure brings the books to life.

Toontoonz · Post by **Toontoonz** » Tue May 31, 2005 5:52 pm

Ramón López wrote:IFinally I found Moho and $bought$ it because I was SURE that it be the program of my life... Well, I'm VERY sorry but seems that I was in a BIG mistake ...Finaly I've understand that I need a more profesionality/funcionality/advanced program, yes... I'll try to do in this 3D program all that 2D things that I've can NOT do in Moho for several reasons that I've manifest in most Feature Request topics...

Dang...and I was hoping for all his requests for changes and improvements to Moho in his over 260 posts that Ramón López would have at least posted a sketch or two or a sample animation so we could see what things he was working on and trying to animate before he gave up on Moho and left....
Guess I have to go over to the Hash Animation Master forum to see something there.

My 2cents on Hash Animation Master: Steep learning curve (ecspecially the model making of non-simple models), lots of crashes of the program when I used it on my Mac (maybe it is better now), $299 for the first year, $99 for each year there after, fun to play with but I could never get 3D to work for me...unfortunately. Too 2D-oriented I guess.

Maya is better (costs a ton more).

But there is a free "learner´s edition" to see if 3D and Maya are for you. Plus there are educational discounts on the program for students.

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Tue May 31, 2005 8:00 pm

Toontoonz wrote:Guess I have to go over to the Hash Animation Master forum to see something there.

What I really don't understand is why some people buy software without asking themselves beforehand if this program can actually do what they want it to do. I've read in this forum posts from people wanting to do video editing, cell animation, full 3D animation etc., while Moho is clearly advertized as a vector based (b-spline) cartoon character animation program for the low and mid budget market.

Sigh, do people (generally speaking) ever read beyond sales talk and price tags (this is a retorical question)?

Seriously, I've read in the Animator's Survival Kit (arrived by mail order this afternoon

) that it can easily take ten years (or more) to become a reasonably good animator, so what is a couple of months investigating on that time scale?

My late father taught my to keep your finger on your money, only buy something you really need. I don't always acts on that solid advice, but I don't complain to others either if I bought something useless. I just suffer my losses in silence and hope some other sucker will buy my mistake. If not, then it's the PWB (with a gratious throw or a enthousiastic slam dunk)

Toontoonz · Post by **Toontoonz** » Tue May 31, 2005 9:00 pm

One of my brother´s was really interested in becoming a 3D animator a few years back.
I suggested he use my copy of Hash Animation Master 3D program I had given up on and use it on his Mac to see if he really would like doing 3D animation.
Nope he said - He was going to get a new Windows computer (this is few years ago when it cost and arm and a leg to get big harddrive, RAM and fast processor) so he could use the high powered, 3D software 3DS Max.
He got a loan for over $10,000 to get everything he needed.
I told him try Hash first to even see if even liked to do 3D. It is different.
Nope.
So he got it all. $$$$$$$$$.
In his spare time, he spent about 4-6 months trying to learn the program. A year later all he could do was make a red ball fly through outer space...
He stopped using the software after 6 months (and the Windows computer, too - his mac had all the software he really used) and was paying back his loan for years...
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Toontoonz · Post by **Toontoonz** » Tue May 31, 2005 9:22 pm

Because it does take lots of time and talent to be good at any artistic thing - drawing, writing, singing, dancing, playing a musical instrument or sports or acting...most people give up because they don´t want to put in the time to develop any talents they may have. (And most don´t have any talents. Like I cannot sing or play a musical instrument and never will - because I don´t have the talent to do so.

)
Computers and its´ artistic software can seduce one into thinking that one does have talent OR the computer/software combination can supercharge what little talent one has in a very short period of time and make one a creative genius overnight.
Unfortunately it does not work that way. The computer and the software are just tools. Just like a pencil or paintbrush. One has to work them (and have talent) to get some results that one likes. It can take months and years and years and years, depending on how much one puts into working and developing ones talent.

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I think this is why programs like Poser http://www.e-frontier.com/ and Bryce http://bryce.daz3d.com/55index.php are popular. One just plugs in things and -viola!- that landscape one just made in Bryce looks really nice. Or the same with Poser - grab a body or two or three, move it around and cool- artistic greatness. Until you go to a Poser or Bryce forum and see 6-year olds posting the same quality of really nice bit of digital art that everyone else has posted...and one then realizes a monkey with no talent could create nice looking things with that type software....

jorgy · Post by **jorgy** » Tue May 31, 2005 9:35 pm

I couldn't agree more with toontoonz and rasheed.

Software is a tool. It's like a hammer, or a handsaw. There are fancier hammers (pneumatic nail guns) and saws (circular and band). They accomplish the same things. However, there is a learning curve.

A master carpenter can do excellent work with any tools, but having better tools makes the job easier and faster. And ask any craftsmen if they have a favorite tool, they will. And sure, the latest Binford-2000 cut-o-matic may be a great tool, but it still takes time to learn.

I think that moho has met a great need - 2 1/2D animation with a relatively easy learning curve and being very powerful. It is not maya. But it also isn't a piece of paper and colored pencils. For me, it's the "sweet spot" of power and useability.

janimatic · Post by **janimatic** » Tue May 31, 2005 9:39 pm

What about XSI ?
i am actually using maya but my eyes start moving on XSI it look really complete (include also compositing tools) and veeeery cheap compared to similar tools (foundation version around less than 500 $).
Yes they all are hard to use so we'd better make the right choice from the begining...
cheeers

Nichod · Post by **Nichod** » Tue May 31, 2005 10:05 pm

What about XSI ?

Personally I'd go XSI over Maya. The only issue I have with both of them is how much they can bog down your system. XSI ran horribly on my computer. Yet I installed Cinema and Lightwave and they both ran smooth. It could have been my hardware, but I tried various fixes like changing drivers etc. to no avail.

I still use 3D software for illustration and experimentation. I think if I were to go back to full time using 3D to create my work, then I'd likely go with AM or Blender. Both are inexpensive (even free) to maintain and are very capable.

Brian

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:36 am

Toontoonz wrote:Because it does take lots of time and talent to be good at any artistic thing - drawing, writing, singing, dancing, playing a musical instrument or sports or acting...most people give up because they don´t want to put in the time to develop any talents they may have. (And most don´t have any talents. Like I cannot sing or play a musical instrument and never will - because I don´t have the talent to do so. )

When I'm creative I can't really be bothered by considerations of other people. I'd rather be bothered by the problems and their solutions right in front of me. What other people think (or even what I think when the work is finished) I can't control at that moment, so I try not to think about it. Things are already complicated enough as they are.

I know I have no particular talent for drawing (if such a thing exists), but I also know that drawing can be learned, just as you can learn how to drive a car. Arts and crafts aren't really that different. Only arts have received an aura of devine intervention at some time in Western history, which stated that only those individuals with talent are meant to be artist and the rest to be "mere artisans", or even "totally untalented". I think this way of seeing the world of creativeness is so arrogant and restrictive.

For visual arts: if you have the genes for good dexterity and eye-hand coordination, it helps, but you still need to study, practice and practice, and share your knowledge with peers, and then bring that into practice. The only talents you really need for visual arts is being able to hold a pencil or brush, see proportions, draw what you see, concentrate and be patient. Most people have these talents (be it latent), however they lack motivation and perseverance and want quick results.

So for now I want to stick like glue to Moho. It seems to be a fine tool for learning animation. Only when I feel I'm skilled enough I consider anything else.

Snudddy · Post by **Snudddy** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:44 pm

Ramón López I also use Hash Animation master and its a great program, the newer versions just keeps getting better and better. But I also stick to Moho because it has the best tools when I want some cool 2d animation fast. 3d is after all super time consuming especially if you want a 3d character to have a good toon look and expressions.

Moho is also getting better and better especially when you look into the script forum where new tools constantly are beeing made. Some guy recently made this bitmap drawing to vector converter and it has blown me away!

Both Animation master and Moho are super tools!

Rai López · Post by **Rai López** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:19 pm

...ARGH!!! (HELLO & THANKS to everybody) I dislike 3D, it can be cool but requires a lot of time (like everybody have said here), I have no pacience and is difficult can be expresive with that technique (I think) ...Cause of this (for 3st time) I DON'T want to work with 3D forms! I dislike toon renders too and the only that I want is work with PLANES (like in Moho I've done) but with the total liberty of a powerfull 3D program... Work with bones and 2D forms was my dream and, in the past, my first idea (that I never must leave) was working with 2D planes in a 3D app, but then, when I discover Moho I said: W:shock:W! and when I see the Version 5 I said: W:shock: :shock:W!!! is the "perfect program philosophy to me" that is the cause of this Moho seemed perfect for me and cause of this I bought it! Apart, Moho is the one solution that I found, well, now there is a program called Harmony (by Toon Boom) that seems the perfect & professional 2D solution, but this cost thousand & thousand dollars/euros that I don't have at this time

and there is not demo vesions available (somebody knows something about?) to be sure about his capablilities...

Rasheed wrote: What I really don't understand is why some people buy software without asking themselves beforehand if this program can actually do what they want it to do. I've read in this forum posts from people wanting to do video editing, cell animation, full 3D animation etc., while Moho is clearly advertized as a vector based (b-spline) cartoon character animation program for the low and mid budget market.

JAJA... (Sorry!) Rasheed, you can be sure that I know the program so much better that you can imaginate and I knew too the program capabilities when I bought it (I waited 6 moths after know it untill the version 5 was launched and seemed so good), I knew about Moho limitations too but I thought that I can to do without all that things, finally I was wrong (like you can see) but everybody can have a MISTAKE (I think)... I always have said that I'd buy the program with what I'd work (instead have an illegal copy), and i thought that especially this was a good idea in the case of LM company, seems a good company and a very good people and I thought that with this I make a little effort to "help" that company go ahead... Well, thats all

Now I'm with Hash and it crased my PC in some times, yes... seems that Moho SUPER-stability is the first thig that I'll miss... I like the splines technique that the AM use (some errors some times too, but well...) and working with "layers", both techniques remember me to Moho and this is good for me

...Well, I only hope don't to be wrong with this decission and, now that all of you know that I want/search, you can say to me PLEASE (if you know) if I'm in the right way now with this app to work with that 2D forms in real terns or there is a better solution in the market... Well: THANKS, THANKS & THANKS for all (to all) again and BYE!

Toontoonz · Post by **Toontoonz** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:29 pm

Ramón - If you ever make an animation in Hash Animation Master please tell us where you post it so we can all see it!
Tip: Don´t spend all your time trying to learn all the technical ins and outs of the programs - create animations with them.
(And if you think Moho is frustrating, spend a few weeks with Hash and you will be pulling your hair out.)
Moho is a nifty program that one can start it up and be making a nice, fun animation within 30 minutes. To do the same thing in a 3D program would take weeks or months of learning.
Too bad you never posted any of your animations you made in Moho for all of us to view.
Have fun with AM!

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:46 pm

Well Ramon, as I'm new to the medium, I can't really judge if Moho, Animation Master or whatever program is best for you. What I can judge is that patience is one of the requirements of becoming a good animator. Animating is a lot of work and there are no shortcuts to quality.

I'm sure if you feel more comfortable with A.M. than with Moho and you really know the program like the palm of your hand, it's just as good a program as any other. It is the artist/artisan behind the program that creates the animation.

I rather dislike the market model of A.M., in which IIRC you have to subscribe to be able to keep using the program. The market model of The Tab I dislike even more, because they pin their software to your computer. If you buy a new computer, you have to get a new software key from those Italians. And when the company goes bust, you are in deep sh**.

Moho has a really nice market model, just as Maya has. You can learn to use it for free, but once you want to use it commercially, you'll have to buy it. I can't afford to buy Maya, but I could (just) afford to buy Moho. And because I like the way Lost Marble markets its software I actually bought it, while there was no need (I do animation as a hobby, not as a profession).

IMO a computer program is so much more than program functionality, after sales support is actually much more important. And Lost Marble's after sales support is really, really good. I am not so sure about those other companies that sell animation software.

Toontoonz · Post by **Toontoonz** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:52 pm

Rasheed wrote: The only talents you really need for visual arts is being able to hold a pencil or brush, see proportions, draw what you see, concentrate and be patient. Most people have these talents (be it latent), however they lack motivation and perseverance and want quick results.

So the only difference between you and Chuck Jones and Tex Avery and Walt Disney (and his staff of (talented) animators) and many other animators is that they were more motivated and had perseverance in their craft...but really had no talent to draw or animate?
If, as you say, I hold a pencil, draw what I see, concentrate, be patient, stay motivated and perservere with using my pencil to draw what I see I, too, will be a creative genius like those geniuses of the animation? That´s all there is to it? No talent needed? Yahoooo!!!!

nobudget · Post by **nobudget** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:02 pm

Actually, Walt Disney was not good at drawing himself, he was a very good producer with a great eye for talent. Mickey Mouse was designed by Ub Iwerks for example. But the point you make is clear, sarcastic but clear. I didn't want to get into it but yes, almost every person can learn to draw proficient, to be really good you do need the right genetic code. Just like a musician. I got the drawing skills like my grandfather and uncle, my father got the musical talent. Others are good at math. You can't learn to be Einstein either, even if you really really want to...

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com