Thanks mike, your explanation makes perfect sense, something tells me you are right on this, but I prefer to believe in Santa Claus for a few more months, even if it means I have to wear that special wraparound jacket again .
New Toon Boom "Animate" Released
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Hmm...I'm pretty happy with AS Pro. Learned to work around some of the shortcomings. But it works really well for what I want it to do.
Never used ToonBoom, so I can't say. But I'm happy with AS Pro. Wonder if I'm missing anything by not checking out Toon Boom? Do we not know what we're missing? Or is the grass not greener on the other side of the fence?
I dunno. For the bucks its worth, AS Pro has been a fantastic little app. Very very pleased with it. Hasn't changed hugely since its Moho days, just bugs have been fixed and little add-ons implemented, but by no means an overhaul. The bugs have been fixed - this is a biggie for me. So, 5.6 is what the original Moho should have been. Awesome.
Never used ToonBoom, so I can't say. But I'm happy with AS Pro. Wonder if I'm missing anything by not checking out Toon Boom? Do we not know what we're missing? Or is the grass not greener on the other side of the fence?
I dunno. For the bucks its worth, AS Pro has been a fantastic little app. Very very pleased with it. Hasn't changed hugely since its Moho days, just bugs have been fixed and little add-ons implemented, but by no means an overhaul. The bugs have been fixed - this is a biggie for me. So, 5.6 is what the original Moho should have been. Awesome.
Yeah, but at least one person around here must be trying Animate. Can't we have a comment from an actual user?
Note: I'm interested, but Animate more or less requires an Nvidia (x)600 card for OpenGL graphics.
This is causing me to look at the Asus gaming laptop down at Best Buy... It's the perfect machine for that.
Note: I'm interested, but Animate more or less requires an Nvidia (x)600 card for OpenGL graphics.
This is causing me to look at the Asus gaming laptop down at Best Buy... It's the perfect machine for that.
Human:
I've downloaded Animate for my NVIDIA powered desktop machine and my Fujitsu, non-NVIDIA tablet PC, and it works on both. Although I have not thoroughly tested every aspect on my Tablet PC.
From past experience with ToonBoom products, Animate is much more intuitive, but much more "procedural" than Moho. You definitely need to adhere to the step-by-step methods of doing things in Animate. To me, it seems like initial setup is rather laborious, but once this is done, the power and flexibility is truly unrivaled in any other 2D solution, Anime Studio included.
Basically, you have every form of animation included, cut-out, (without bones), cut-out with bones and IK, point animation or "morphing", quick drawing substitution, hand drawn frame-by-frame - and all forms available simultaneously.
Add to these many wonderful things the ability to see and manipulate, in real time, antialiased linework, gradients, textures, (not blurs and tones, however) - and you have a really nice platform for everything 2D that grows on you the more you use it.
The extensive use of symbols, (symbols within symbols), (animation within animation), for reuse at any time is extremely powerful.
True, the entry phase is longer than Anime Studio, but the overall organisation, flow of design and deep animation functionality makes this a really desirable application for all of us. Now, I realise the price point could really be a hindrance to some of us, (myself included) and I don't have a solution for this problem or an answer to this objection.
But, it sure is cheaper than ToonBoom Digital Pro, easier to use, nearly as powerful in all areas and more powerful than Digital Pro in others.
I'm sold, but have to negotiate with my "mentor" for appropriate funds to arrive in a timely fashion.
Download the FREE, PLE version - it has all the main functionality of the full version, just forget exporting anything useful, (the watermark is absolutely "in your face", making output out of the question). Also, download the free "video tutorials" - they really cover almost every aspect of the software - and that, in a hurry. The guy never takes a breath.
Although I kind of hate to say it, I think these guys have finally nailed it with Animate and I believe it may emerge as "the only game in town" at some near future point.
Greg Smith
I've downloaded Animate for my NVIDIA powered desktop machine and my Fujitsu, non-NVIDIA tablet PC, and it works on both. Although I have not thoroughly tested every aspect on my Tablet PC.
From past experience with ToonBoom products, Animate is much more intuitive, but much more "procedural" than Moho. You definitely need to adhere to the step-by-step methods of doing things in Animate. To me, it seems like initial setup is rather laborious, but once this is done, the power and flexibility is truly unrivaled in any other 2D solution, Anime Studio included.
Basically, you have every form of animation included, cut-out, (without bones), cut-out with bones and IK, point animation or "morphing", quick drawing substitution, hand drawn frame-by-frame - and all forms available simultaneously.
Add to these many wonderful things the ability to see and manipulate, in real time, antialiased linework, gradients, textures, (not blurs and tones, however) - and you have a really nice platform for everything 2D that grows on you the more you use it.
The extensive use of symbols, (symbols within symbols), (animation within animation), for reuse at any time is extremely powerful.
True, the entry phase is longer than Anime Studio, but the overall organisation, flow of design and deep animation functionality makes this a really desirable application for all of us. Now, I realise the price point could really be a hindrance to some of us, (myself included) and I don't have a solution for this problem or an answer to this objection.
But, it sure is cheaper than ToonBoom Digital Pro, easier to use, nearly as powerful in all areas and more powerful than Digital Pro in others.
I'm sold, but have to negotiate with my "mentor" for appropriate funds to arrive in a timely fashion.
Download the FREE, PLE version - it has all the main functionality of the full version, just forget exporting anything useful, (the watermark is absolutely "in your face", making output out of the question). Also, download the free "video tutorials" - they really cover almost every aspect of the software - and that, in a hurry. The guy never takes a breath.
Although I kind of hate to say it, I think these guys have finally nailed it with Animate and I believe it may emerge as "the only game in town" at some near future point.
Greg Smith
Greg,
Do they *really* have bones? What I saw (and admittedly, it's very very hard to tell even downloading the manual and the video tutorials because there is a ton of stuff that has to be covered and because, as you say, the initial setup for doing nearly anything is very laborious) did not look like bones but rather a way of controlling cutout animation. Which is to say it didn't look as if it smoothly deformed a single drawn vector image.
What I've seen in the past is that if you want this kind of look you need to essentially "cheat" by drawing multiple overlapping shapes -- they talk about this in TB Digital Pro extensively but even then they sort of lose me along the way about how you can do it in three different ways. This is not bones to me, but just a way of organizing cutouts. If there is a way of deforming smoothly a single drawn shape it certainly isn't clear cut from any of the example materials.
I suspect even if there is I wouldn't be interested -- using TB in its various incarnations (I've tried them all except for this last one) always seems to me like "work", whereas anytime I'm doing almost anything in AS it feels like "fun", and in my retirement I ain't doing any work anymore. Papagayo, on the other hand, feels like work so much that I have my wife do it, which isn't endearing me to her much but she does want to get our shows out. That's a program that's really and truly in need of an update, and I'd almost bite the bullet and go with TB to get its lipsync if only for that.
Anyway, I'd really like to hear about where I might be wrong about bones in TB, Greg. Even pointing me to a page in the manual would be helpful.
Do they *really* have bones? What I saw (and admittedly, it's very very hard to tell even downloading the manual and the video tutorials because there is a ton of stuff that has to be covered and because, as you say, the initial setup for doing nearly anything is very laborious) did not look like bones but rather a way of controlling cutout animation. Which is to say it didn't look as if it smoothly deformed a single drawn vector image.
What I've seen in the past is that if you want this kind of look you need to essentially "cheat" by drawing multiple overlapping shapes -- they talk about this in TB Digital Pro extensively but even then they sort of lose me along the way about how you can do it in three different ways. This is not bones to me, but just a way of organizing cutouts. If there is a way of deforming smoothly a single drawn shape it certainly isn't clear cut from any of the example materials.
I suspect even if there is I wouldn't be interested -- using TB in its various incarnations (I've tried them all except for this last one) always seems to me like "work", whereas anytime I'm doing almost anything in AS it feels like "fun", and in my retirement I ain't doing any work anymore. Papagayo, on the other hand, feels like work so much that I have my wife do it, which isn't endearing me to her much but she does want to get our shows out. That's a program that's really and truly in need of an update, and I'd almost bite the bullet and go with TB to get its lipsync if only for that.
Anyway, I'd really like to hear about where I might be wrong about bones in TB, Greg. Even pointing me to a page in the manual would be helpful.
MKelly:
You're right, they are not real bones, as found in Anime Studio, but simply giving IK functionality to a hierarchy of "cutout" shapes. They don't deform via envelopes, like in AS. And, you're also right, setting up characters in ToonBoom Animate is work, as in work. It doesn't feel fun, but I wish it did.
What is truly nice about the software is that you can see everything in real time, almost precisely as you will when rendered. And, once all of that initial setup is done, and done once, it looks like it could be more fun when animating, since everything is kept in such nice order and contained in neat little "symbol" packages, which can be very deep and powerful - containing all "sub" animation and "part" substitution on a frame by frame basis.
But, being semi-retired, myself, I fully empathize with your desire to keep things simple and fun. I just hate it, though, when talented developers like Mike stop developing or sell to the big guys. I liked Moho just the way it was, (except for the cumbersome "Styles" usage and lack of real time rendering). I don't think the newer incarnations of Moho have added much. And, I fear, development has come to an end.
So, where does this leave us all? We either need to pick something that, at least, appears to have a future, or, do what I have always hoped others would do - that is, to get off the "upgrade" bandwagon, (both for software purchases and hardware purchases), and run with what exists and keep on running.
But, that darn technology is so enticing that it is hard to take this kind of stand. It keeps getting easier and faster - and that makes the process sometimes keep feeling "fun". I think.
Greg Smith
You're right, they are not real bones, as found in Anime Studio, but simply giving IK functionality to a hierarchy of "cutout" shapes. They don't deform via envelopes, like in AS. And, you're also right, setting up characters in ToonBoom Animate is work, as in work. It doesn't feel fun, but I wish it did.
What is truly nice about the software is that you can see everything in real time, almost precisely as you will when rendered. And, once all of that initial setup is done, and done once, it looks like it could be more fun when animating, since everything is kept in such nice order and contained in neat little "symbol" packages, which can be very deep and powerful - containing all "sub" animation and "part" substitution on a frame by frame basis.
But, being semi-retired, myself, I fully empathize with your desire to keep things simple and fun. I just hate it, though, when talented developers like Mike stop developing or sell to the big guys. I liked Moho just the way it was, (except for the cumbersome "Styles" usage and lack of real time rendering). I don't think the newer incarnations of Moho have added much. And, I fear, development has come to an end.
So, where does this leave us all? We either need to pick something that, at least, appears to have a future, or, do what I have always hoped others would do - that is, to get off the "upgrade" bandwagon, (both for software purchases and hardware purchases), and run with what exists and keep on running.
But, that darn technology is so enticing that it is hard to take this kind of stand. It keeps getting easier and faster - and that makes the process sometimes keep feeling "fun". I think.
Greg Smith
I have a question.
(I want to ask you, Greg, since after I downloaded the trial it gave me a hard blue screen of death every time I clicked on the drawing window. Tech support said use an Nvidia card.)
I'm interested in Animate's capacity to do layered morphs--something I really can't achieve very well right now with my bitmap stuff. What people round here, I guess, call point to point.
I want to roto from bitmap motion sequences in a variety of ways--archival footage, iClone, roughs generated by bitmap morphing.
What about that? (I have to say the manual for this software is absolutely incredible.)
(I want to ask you, Greg, since after I downloaded the trial it gave me a hard blue screen of death every time I clicked on the drawing window. Tech support said use an Nvidia card.)
I'm interested in Animate's capacity to do layered morphs--something I really can't achieve very well right now with my bitmap stuff. What people round here, I guess, call point to point.
I want to roto from bitmap motion sequences in a variety of ways--archival footage, iClone, roughs generated by bitmap morphing.
What about that? (I have to say the manual for this software is absolutely incredible.)
Thanks for the info, Greg.
AS works the way I want it... mostly. The few things that would make it perfect *for me* are not likely things that Mike will do (although they are probably fairly easy to program). If there were some better way to manage assets across projects (like Actions between skeletons, for example), interpolation across switch groups (allowing a mouth to go from happy to sad in mid-phoneme), and better timeline curves I think I'd never worry again about even looking at other software. As it is it's pretty damn close to a perfect product, though.
In the 3D world we often spend two or three times what AS costs (or about one copy of TB Animate) just to try and solve a particular aspect of a project. That I've gone for so long without needing to buy anything else speaks wonders about AS (but also about the 2D process in general).
AS works the way I want it... mostly. The few things that would make it perfect *for me* are not likely things that Mike will do (although they are probably fairly easy to program). If there were some better way to manage assets across projects (like Actions between skeletons, for example), interpolation across switch groups (allowing a mouth to go from happy to sad in mid-phoneme), and better timeline curves I think I'd never worry again about even looking at other software. As it is it's pretty damn close to a perfect product, though.
In the 3D world we often spend two or three times what AS costs (or about one copy of TB Animate) just to try and solve a particular aspect of a project. That I've gone for so long without needing to buy anything else speaks wonders about AS (but also about the 2D process in general).
Human:
I'm afraid I haven't experimented with morphing yet. I'm sure you can use reference footage applied frame-by-frame, for rotoscoping - and that you could pick key frames from that reference footage to add, on another layer, rotoscoped morphing keyframes, (thus saving you inbetweening time). And, I'm pretty sure that different morphs can be made for each layer. But I'm not sure that is answering your question, or not.
It is the very sophisticated layer system coupled with the incredibly powerful timeline that gives this kind of flexibility. This is what is setting Animate apart from competing products.
About "point-to-point" morphing: In Anime Studio you really can only "morph" from one version of a shape to another version of the very same shape. The number of points has to remain constant. Kind of like morphing in a 3D animation application.
In ToonBoom Animate, you can actually morph between 2 very different shapes, (in terms of the number of points in the first shape versus the number of points in the second shape). Very powerful. You control the way a shape morphs using different kinds of "hints" - contour hints being probably the most common.
Once you become aware that everything in Animate is an object, (whether just a single stroke or an enclosed polygon), you start to see the true power of the application. Of course, this makes the whole application more complicated and gives it a higher learning curve.
I'm afraid I haven't experimented with morphing yet. I'm sure you can use reference footage applied frame-by-frame, for rotoscoping - and that you could pick key frames from that reference footage to add, on another layer, rotoscoped morphing keyframes, (thus saving you inbetweening time). And, I'm pretty sure that different morphs can be made for each layer. But I'm not sure that is answering your question, or not.
It is the very sophisticated layer system coupled with the incredibly powerful timeline that gives this kind of flexibility. This is what is setting Animate apart from competing products.
About "point-to-point" morphing: In Anime Studio you really can only "morph" from one version of a shape to another version of the very same shape. The number of points has to remain constant. Kind of like morphing in a 3D animation application.
In ToonBoom Animate, you can actually morph between 2 very different shapes, (in terms of the number of points in the first shape versus the number of points in the second shape). Very powerful. You control the way a shape morphs using different kinds of "hints" - contour hints being probably the most common.
Once you become aware that everything in Animate is an object, (whether just a single stroke or an enclosed polygon), you start to see the true power of the application. Of course, this makes the whole application more complicated and gives it a higher learning curve.
Human,
If all you want is bitmap morphing, there are far better programs on the market to do this than TB.
I'd suggest you try Fantamorph -- I've used tons of various programs (including the granddaddy of them all, Elastic Reality, the high-end $$$$ program used to do the Black/White Michael Jackson video that kind of started the morphing craze) and this one's among the easiest to use as well as one that produces terrific results. It's also incredibly cheap (even the most advanced version is only $100).
http://www.fantamorph.com/
If all you want is bitmap morphing, there are far better programs on the market to do this than TB.
I'd suggest you try Fantamorph -- I've used tons of various programs (including the granddaddy of them all, Elastic Reality, the high-end $$$$ program used to do the Black/White Michael Jackson video that kind of started the morphing craze) and this one's among the easiest to use as well as one that produces terrific results. It's also incredibly cheap (even the most advanced version is only $100).
http://www.fantamorph.com/
Hi mike,
just to clarify... I don't have a bitmap morpher that will let me morph more than one shape layer in a project
need the ability to have overlapping parts
I'm sure I could do this in AS with vectors but the program is too quirky for my little brain--it seems to be great on graphics but too lacking in the foundation services--elementary UI and file management stuff
your mileage, obviously, varies
your brain, however, is by no means so little!
just to clarify... I don't have a bitmap morpher that will let me morph more than one shape layer in a project
need the ability to have overlapping parts
I'm sure I could do this in AS with vectors but the program is too quirky for my little brain--it seems to be great on graphics but too lacking in the foundation services--elementary UI and file management stuff
your mileage, obviously, varies
your brain, however, is by no means so little!
I'm not quite sure what you mean by overlapping parts, but I'm fairly sure you could do what you want with Fantamorph and any good compositing program (which you'd want to do video work anyway, although you can get by with a decent video editor).
It's a bit like the old saw about if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. You can do a lot of things in AS but that isn't necessarily the best place for them. I wouldn't dream of putting together anything serious without a good video editor, good audio editor, and post effects software (for me that's Adobe Premiere, Sony Sound Forge Pro, and Adobe After Effects). A program like TB Animate (to bring this back on track) can probably take the place of one or more of these but it won't be the best way to do that (best meaning ease as well as fast -- as always, the tradeoff is you spend more money).
It's a bit like the old saw about if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. You can do a lot of things in AS but that isn't necessarily the best place for them. I wouldn't dream of putting together anything serious without a good video editor, good audio editor, and post effects software (for me that's Adobe Premiere, Sony Sound Forge Pro, and Adobe After Effects). A program like TB Animate (to bring this back on track) can probably take the place of one or more of these but it won't be the best way to do that (best meaning ease as well as fast -- as always, the tradeoff is you spend more money).
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Hi mkelly,mkelley wrote:I've written about this in private, but I'll take a chance here and try and encapsulate my feelings about why we'll never see version 6.0 of AS.
...
I don't think Mike will come back to AS for all kinds of reasons...
...
Eventually you get tired of even working on it, because you come to a point where the only way you can really make a breakthrough and add value is to do some major rewrites which will require money which you may not get.
...
at a certain point the idea of revisiting your old product is just so horrendous you decide you've moved on.
...
I hope I'm wrong -- I'd pay big bucks (truly) to be wrong.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you're wrong.
(Since you said you hope you're wrong, I think it's probably OK to confirm that.) Here's what I'm talking about:viewtopic.php?p=65743#65743
I'm nowhere near being tired of working on Anime Studio. In fact, I'm very excited to be back on it.
-Mike
Mike,
(I'm a Mike, too :>) As you said, I'm very very happy to be wrong. And I hope you didn't take what I said in the wrong way -- I was merely trying to do some analysis based on my experience and background.
That you are excited gets me excited, too. And on that note, let me take this opportunity to personally thank you for what is truly the best piece of software I've ever owned (and that's from someone who has spent literally tens of thousands of dollars on software -- I almost hate to try and add it up, because I'm pretty sure the total would depress me). AS is elegant and extremely useful, and any improvements you make will only be icing on the already wonderful cake you've provided all of us.
(Now if you're looking for betas... <bg>)
(I'm a Mike, too :>) As you said, I'm very very happy to be wrong. And I hope you didn't take what I said in the wrong way -- I was merely trying to do some analysis based on my experience and background.
That you are excited gets me excited, too. And on that note, let me take this opportunity to personally thank you for what is truly the best piece of software I've ever owned (and that's from someone who has spent literally tens of thousands of dollars on software -- I almost hate to try and add it up, because I'm pretty sure the total would depress me). AS is elegant and extremely useful, and any improvements you make will only be icing on the already wonderful cake you've provided all of us.
(Now if you're looking for betas... <bg>)
Glad to Hear News From Mike Clifton
Well, if Mike has been hired for full time development on Anime Studio, then I take back all of my doubts and misapprehensions. I have always liked the program and the speed with which one person can produce high quality animation.
I guess we'll have to start a new "Feature Requests" category.
I'll bet one of the new things we see will be real time "Style" previews and some form of "Symbol" library for storing both objects and their associated animations. I know this can sort of be done with "Actions", but I bet the functionality gets clearer and simpler to implement. Just a guess.
Never fear, Mike is here.
Greg Smith
Well, if Mike has been hired for full time development on Anime Studio, then I take back all of my doubts and misapprehensions. I have always liked the program and the speed with which one person can produce high quality animation.
I guess we'll have to start a new "Feature Requests" category.
I'll bet one of the new things we see will be real time "Style" previews and some form of "Symbol" library for storing both objects and their associated animations. I know this can sort of be done with "Actions", but I bet the functionality gets clearer and simpler to implement. Just a guess.
Never fear, Mike is here.
Greg Smith
Last edited by GregSmith on Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.