I own both Toon Boom Studio and Anime Studio Pro and really find all of these threads on both forums to be silly.
Both programs have great things going for them but one of the things that always gives me a chuckle is when people mention prices and how much better ASP has it over TBS.
I paid $249 for Toon Boom 3.5 and when version 4 came out 4 months later they gave me the upgrade to version 4 for free. That is a far cry from $600 that was mentioned in this thread. They are always having specials, every month it seems, and one time they emailed me an offer of upgrading my TBS 4 to Digital Pro for $1,999.
Whether or not Digital is worth 3K is up for debate I guess but I look at many of those features and drool over them. A nodal compositor built in? How much would that cost if you bought a separate program for that functionality? I have After Effects but it isn't a nodal compositor like Shake. And Shake used to be a couple thousand until Apple lowered the price to $499. They are really just reworking Shake and will release a new version under a new name and you can bet it will go back up in price. So what is the cost of other nodal apps?
There is Conduit but you would have to buy that and have either Apple's Motion or Final Cut Pro, so you would be looking at easily over a $1,000. Combustion? That would be about the same. Again, to have a nodal compositor built in is a great value.
I think Digital Pro is well priced for all that it offers, and especially at that $1,999 upgrade price which I unfortunately couldn't take advantage of.
I also think that Toon Boom is price right for all that if offers. I like being able to control the user interface, to have dockable pallets, tear off tabs, customize it to my way of working like I do in other apps like After Effects, Cinema 4D, etc. I like being able to do a drawing old school and scan and vectorize it in Toon Boom. I like that the lip syncing is built into the program and not a separate program. Papagayo is free and all that but Leopard users are still waiting for an update as it doesn't work right now.
In general the updates and bug fixes seem to come faster for TBS and I can understand that as they have a team of programmers and not just one like Mike on ASP. Toon Boom justifies the price because there is just a bit more polish here and there. The import and export options for things like Illustrator, Flash, etc are just better. I think TBS Function Editor is better than ASP's Graph Mode. I like TBS 3D environment much better with the top and side views being easy to move things to create multiplane effects and to move the camera.
Both programs offer much and it is unfortunate that these threads pop up on both forums and end up the same. It usually ends up something like this:
"Anime Studio is better!"
"No way, ToonBoom rules. Anime Studio is just a toy."
"I paid $200 for Anime, don't you feel stupid paying $3,000 for Digital Pro?"
etc, etc, ad nauseum.
This is the Anime Studio Forum as far as I'm concerned... when someone asks me on the Anime Studio Forum which is better ToonBoom or Anime Studio no one should be surprised by the response.
There is a thread on this topic in Miscellaneous Chit-Chat forum or other software forum. Maybe I should move this topic there.
I don't use ToonBoom why should I know what the price is. I remember the price USE to be closer to $600. It isn't up to me to check prices on other programs.
Okay just to be fair I checked the website:
Toon Boom is $399 (what version this is I don't know)
Toon Boom "Express" (equivelant to AS standard?) is $99
The big one, I suppose the "Pro" version is $2999.99!
Overall the price is more than AS. That is a big factor for a lot of people who aren't animating as a profession.
Well, first let me say that I am not some kind of troll or some kind of crazed TBS user hell-bent on causing trouble. I just feel like that when somebody asks a question it behooves us to give some good answers.
For example I just visited the TB website and saw that Toon Boom Studio is on sale for $349 not $399, and they are throwing in a $100 training workout series for free. So, that would normally be a combined $499 but you get a savings of $150. Like I said they run specials all the time.
I bought both programs in the past 6 months and enjoy both. That is a real novel concept to some I guess. It seems there are a good many people on both respective forums that want to see things in black and white. There is this notion that you must choose one or the other. If I am on this forum and mention ToonBoom it is like being a traitor. And if I am on the TBS forum and mention ASP it is the same.
This appears to have struck a nerve with you heyvern. I know you are one of the most knowledgeable ASP users around and a true evangelist for Anime Studio but I just don't share your point of view. For me, I have never held such strong beliefs in any one program, operating system, etc. I prefer Macs but have used PCs. I have used Illustrator and Freehand as well as CorelDraw. Used Quark as well as InDesign and Pagemaker and unfortunately Microsoft Publisher.
I am program and platform agnostic. I will use whatever gets the job done, whether it be for a hobby or for professional use. In looking through the forum I have found other programs that have piqued my interest. Through Slowtiger I was able to learn about Mirage/TV Paint and how a bitmap based animation program could add another tool to the toolbox. I have looked at iStopMotion and would like to try my hand at doing stop motion type of animation. It is all about my love for animation, I just don't want to limit myself or tie myself down to one program.
But that does not mean that I like or love Anime Studio any less than the other programs. For the past month I have been using the forum's search function and making multipage PDFs of relevant topics like Masking, Importing, Particles, Brushes, etc. I was hoping to make these available to others or have them posted in a sticky if everyone was okay with it. I bought the Anime Studio Official Guide and have bought the Rose Agent character pack.
I just don't see why it has to be an either/or situation with ASP and TBS. Why can't I enjoy and use both?
Through Slowtiger I was able to learn about Mirage/TV Paint and how a bitmap based animation program could add another tool to the toolbox.
*bows* Thank you. It's nice to know to influence people ...
I don't care much about ToonBoom for two reasons:
1. I don't need just another vector based program since I have AS and Flash, as well as Illustrator and Freehand. I prefer the rough pencil look anyway, which leads to my preference for Mirage.
2. The pricing of ToonBoom was always a mystery for me. I couldn't figure out which packet under which name contained which functions or restrictions. This is a common mistake made by other companies as well.
I bought both programs in the past 6 months and enjoy both. That is a real novel concept to some I guess. It seems there are a good many people on both respective forums that want to see things in black and white. There is this notion that you must choose one or the other.
I just don't see why it has to be an either/or situation with ASP and TBS. Why can't I enjoy and use both?
It's obvious that people start threads like this because of the limited time and resources on their hand. That is why they need to choose one software.
For other people time and money is not an issue. I guess you fall on that category that is why you could not believe that there are actually people who limit their choices.
And it's kind of weird that there are people like that?
I think you (Scunge) missed the point of the discussion here -- I don't think *anyone* said AS or TB was better, only whether it was better for the person who had never done animation before (that was the original question).
Unless someone really doesn't "get it" even a TB person would have to admit AS is better for that person -- TB doesn't do the easy animation that AS does right out of the box. That's all most of us were saying here.
If I could draw TB would be fantastic -- but since I can't AS is fantastic (and I do own both -- I have more software than I have sense). I've never been able to do *anything* in TB. Not one darn thing. Whereas with AS I've already done three half hour animated shows that got rave reviews from the toughest critics (i.e. kids under 8 :>).
I suspect that Digital Pro would indeed be something that could help an amateur like myself (or the original poster who asked the question) due to it's morphing and tweening tools (so we don't have to have as much talent to draw) but it's outrageously priced (yes, it's OVER priced for such a person. Perhaps I should have qualified that, but the implication in this thread that you've missed, once again, is a person brand new to animation. For them to even consider spending $3K is just plain ridiculous).
So -- let's be clear and don't miss the point again -- the OP asked which was better for his purpose and the answer is crystal clear no matter where or who he asks -- AS is the answer. For experienced animators who have talent the answer is no where near as clear (although I suspect that AS still can hold its own against TB in many cases).
I don't think I missed anything. As I am learning both programs right now I think I am in a perfect position to give a qualified and detailed opinion on whether one is easier than the other. I don't get that impression with really anybody else. It seems like most took an hour and played with the demo of TB and found it not their cup of tea. And that is perfectly fine but it seems to me you aren't giving a really well-informed opinion to somebody who asks what should I buy, what is easier, etc.
One of the misconceptions I see time and time again, is this idea that you have to draw frame by frame in TB. Not so. One of the first things I did in TB was work with Cut-Out characters. So for the sake of my argument let us see how the two would handle that.
Say we take somebody who is familiar with a vector drawing program and/or a bitmap program and want to create characters in those programs and take them elsewhere to animate. They have no experience animating at all. In Toon Boom they could import the artwork and use pegs which is really like folders in a way. You drag and drop the artwork or elements into each peg and set up a parent child relationship. You would have other pegs within pegs like a subfolder within a folder. So you would have a master peg with the Torso under that and under the Torso you would have say the head/neck and both arms. The Hips would be on the same level as the Torso under the Master Peg and both legs would be subfolders or pegs under the Hips. You would move the pivot points of each element to their logical places at the joints. Then set the exposure of all of the elements to cover the number of frames of your animation.
Add a drop shadow effect and drop the Master Peg onto it so that it is a child of the effect. Then it is simply a matter of animating. Set a keyframe, move a few frames forward and select and move the limbs and continue to keyframe. Toon Boom will do the tweening between frames and you are not drawing frame by frame. It is not really that difficult.
Now on to Anime. Sure, with bones I can see how rigging may go a lot faster but how much time do you lose before you get to that point? Whether importing from Illustrator or Photoshop you are going to have to spend time fixing. With Illustrator you might have quite a bit of cleanup. And if you use bitmaps or PNGs, well, we know the problems that can come up. Remember a few months back when Box had problems with his Teddy Bear character? He had the thin white outlines of course but how much time did he spend trying to workaround it or minimize it?
There are many factors involved. What animation style does someone want to use? Do they want to draw and create the characters in an outside app? Sure, we tell people to learn Anime's drawing tools but someone who has even a little experience with vector tools would probably be more at home with TBs toolset. Not that TB is inherently better it is just that it adheres to certain conventional standards shared by most apps.
This is in no way slight against Anime. I find that Yoda set it best when he told Luke that you must, "unlearn what you have learned". It is a totally unique drawing environment and it is decidedly not an easy learning curve. Even heyvern has admitted to fighting and struggling with the drawing tools before coming to love them. I find myself doing the same. What helped me turn the corner was seeing the Rose Agent movies and watching with such speed and simplicity how the artist used the square, oval, add point, curvature, hide line and line width tools with such genius.
I honestly sit here and can't really come to any conclusions as to which is faster or easier to use. If someone is used to traditional vector tools than coming to grips with ASP tools might be frustrating. On the other hand, someone who has never used Illustrator or any drawing app might take to ASP's drawing tools like a duck to water.
One thing about prices for the software. I bought ASP for $129 and TB for $249. I never, ever pay full price for software. I am not a rich man but I have been around the block and know how to play the game. Some of you apparently don't. Don't hate the player hate the game. If somebody is patient and explores all of the resources available, finding great deals on full legitimate commercial software is not hard at all.
Actually, I'm interested in what you say because you make the assumption I didn't try my copy of TB (which I own) -- I tried it for several months and was never able to get it to do anything I wanted.
I DID go the cutout route, but the look of seperating the arm and legs into two sections is horrible -- did that not bother you? I understand it's better if you're not going for a traditional cartoon look, but I like solid outlines around my character's limbs and could not get that to work with the peg approach.
Indeed, I downloaed the trial of TB DP and found they also said it wouldn't work well with outlined characters, which is why they introduced glue. Now, that does seem like it would work, but it's SO much more trouble to rig a character than using AS.
With AS I can use bones and get perfect arms and legs. They bend properly, look like the cartoons I see (and want to emulate) and it's easy to set them up -- my rigging takes about two minutes (with TB DP I never could get a character rigged using glue -- there are about a billion steps to the process).
So... I still stand by my comments. AS is perfect for beginners and for those who like the cutout style of animation. For those who have talent (can draw) and want to do cel animation I'd recommend TB.
Well, that argument could be made for anything -- saying a better tennis racquet can't help your game, it should be your own skills that can overcome anything.
It's a pretty specious argument -- fairly obviously the better the tool, the easier the process. You can certainly workaround a lot of things, but there's no sense in doing so if you don't have to.
But I'm still interested in learning how to get TB to do what I want to do, and would appreciate tips (people can email me privately because it might be OT for this forum).
As I have said before, I have both. For most projects AS works better over TB. But on the last one I used TB, 6 hours to do 30 seconds that would have been almost twice as long if I was using AS. TB studio shouldn't be blown off because it doesn't have the same features as AS. Just as I use Photoshop and Gimp. One is better at some things than the other. Learn both, if price is an issue than you lean gimp and hope that some where down the line a project will pay for the other software.
I have both, and i have hesitated until now to give my 5 cents but..
I use Toon Boom much more now than AS. Why? Because, as I was growing up, i have been interested in cel animation development. TB leans much more towards that tradition.
It's really up to you whatever you use. You could do it on toilet paper and in the end, who friggin cares?
If AS does what you want then be happy. IF TB does what you want, be happy. If you use both (i have both as well) you have the best of both worlds.
Writing a VS thing in an AS forum if obviously going to be biased towards AS.
Why don't you ask in a forum such as animationforum.net or something?
mkelley, if you have questions about TB, then ask in the TB forum.
This is the AS forum, you know?
here's a website for you
I feel Anime Studio is at it's best when you start to interpolate/morph lines and shapes. If you draw a shape, skip forward a few frames, and modify the shape, the program automatically creates a smooth, fluid morph between the two shapes that is difficult and time consuming to achieve in frame by frame animation, but looks just as good. The process is extremely intuitive, and since bones can also morph/interpolate shapes that makes Anime Studio unique amongst all other animation programs. You will not be able to do this any other software.
Most of us agree that ToonBoom's strengths and innovations are built around traditional frame by frame animation, a process that is guaranteed to be time consuming and difficult, even for an established professional. To pull off a feature quality production, you'll need a large army of skilled animators and artists using the frame by frame method, while vector morphing with Anime Studio can produce Disney quality animation with a small group of skilled animators in about the same time, which is FAR more cost effective.
As an animation tool, both Toon Boom Studio and Anime Studio are superior to Flash, but not even Toonboom Digital pro, a $3000 program, does vector morphing very well(although it tries to compensate with vector glue and shape hints), and uses a "peg" system to facilitate cut-out style animation that works like a primitive version of Anime Studio's bones.
When I compare the two programs, it's basically vector morphing vs frame by frame. Do you want to draw every single frame of animation? Or would you rather focus on making a few choice frames look great and let Anime Studio morph between them?
The choice seems obvious to me, but I'm definitely curious to read about more answers in favor of Toon Boom, Digital Pro, or Harmony.
