General Question...

[Danimal]

So I was wondering how people's workflow goes.

Specifically storyboarding. I have never done this step, as when I write the script I tend to use the two-column television script format as opposed to the more common film style script format. In using that format, it requires me to "verbally" storyboard the project as I go through scene by scene.

However, I know this is nothing like how normal animation houses have EVER worked. Is there a benefit to scripting using the more vague film style script and then drawing out a storyboard that I'm just plain not seeing? It seems to end up adding an extra step - something I look to avoid seeing as how my whole company is just me.

All thoughts are always appreciated. And if this is in the totally wrong forum, by all means move it to the appropriate one.

[slowtiger]

It all depends on how many people are working with you and how big the project is. The more split up your production is, the more elaborated the storyboard must be. The longer the film, the greater the need to write down first what's necessary. The more professional you have to work, with a client and several approval cycles, the more your storyboard needs to be in a "standard" format.

If you work alone or in a very small team, the whole storyboard could fit on a single sheet of paper. Which format you choose is mainly your personal preference and of course dictated by the content of your film.

[areyouguystwins]

We work with the typical film style production script format. But that is because we are animating a feature length film. Currently there are two of us working on this project.

Basically the flow for us:

1. Wrote screenplay using Movie Magic Screenwriter software

2. Generated production script out of MMS for audio and video.

3. Recorded the audio tracks -- MMS generates individual character dialogue sheets.

4. Edited and spliced together recorded dialogue and sound effects using "Audacity" for each individual scene (each scene averages 1-2 minutes, if longer we break up into sub scenes).

5. Animate to the edited soundtrack -- if we need to edit the audio we go back into Audacity and edit as we animate (make sure to keep group files after you generate your initial wav so you can go back and edit the audio).

6. Generate mov files out of Anime for each scene once animation is complete, convert to avi files and "splice" together in Windows Movie Maker for the final edit.

7. Currently we have someone else who is recording the music for the animation, we will put that in last during the final edit in WMM as its own audio track.

Note: we use Papagayo to generate the dat files for the characters' lip synch. An OK program, although a bit tedious.

That's about it for our workflow. Pretty simple. Because we have a lot of files to deal with (70 scenes = 70 anime files, 70 wav files, 70 audacity project files, 70 mov files etc.), we make sure to back up each day on four separate hard drives the files we edit for that day.

So far we are up to scene 34 almost halfway there on the first draft. We started the project in July 2007. We hope to have the final project complete by June 2008. Then on to two more of our feature length screenplays to animate.

Yeah, it's a labor of love -- no doubt. We aren't making a dime off it, nor will we ever, but it's fun -- and in my book that's not a bad thing.

[knunk]

As a board artist of 18 years I confess to being biased. Boarding is the most important step in any animation project.
The layout of the script has nothing to do with anything, write as much detail as you need to get your point across.

"each scene averages 1-2 minutes, if longer we break up into sub scenes".

Guys, You cut for a reason. This isn't how you make a film.

[areyouguystwins]

As a board artist of 18 years I confess to being biased. Boarding is the most important step in any animation project.
The layout of the script has nothing to do with anything, write as much detail as you need to get your point across.

"each scene averages 1-2 minutes, if longer we break up into sub scenes".

Guys, You cut for a reason. This isn't how you make a film.

LOL! I always love how people in the "biz" always seem to think that only THEY have the "right answers." Hey, everyone has their own way to make a project work.

We have 70 scenes in our animated film. Anime gets a little dicey when you have an anime file longer than 2 minutes. As I stated before, we find scrolling on Anime's timeline to be quit tedious when you have a file longer than 2 minutes. Therefore we break the scene into separate Anime files and "splice" together later.

No big deal, and it works, hard as that may be to believe.

Hard as it may be to believe, we are making a film, even if it isn't "the right way."

I say to anyone out there who is creative, smart and has the drive -- go for it! Make your own films and make them anyway you see fit. If we followed what the "pros" advised we would never be making this film, as we were told repeatedly by supposed people in the "biz" that one cannot make their own feature length animated film. We are supposed to leave it up to the "big guys" -- Disney and the like.

Sorry if I sound snitty but comments such as above get under my skin. Such comments only discourage creativity amongst us "little guys." Just my humble opinion. Take it or leave it.

[Danimal]

I hear where you're coming from, areyouguystwins, and agree. Even when I used Flash I always broke down my project into much shorter subscenes. Always easier to find your way around in a one minute clip than a 10 minute one. Have you posted any clips of your film? It sounds intriguing.

I guess what it boils down to is that since I am writer, director, and animator (and the "client" for that matter), I envision the scene in my head and have found little use for storyboarding. But this seems to definitely be the exception and not the rule. Perhaps I should look at sketching out a quick storyboard...

Then again, I'm also seeing I'm quite different in that I like to record dialog in one shot - real time, not character by character. This seems to be quite the opposite of how most others work as well.

[bartender]

Ya i find storyboarding to be effective, yet i rarely can sit myself down and do them! I guess storyboarding just helps with your workflow, so you can more easily do scenes out of order, and then you also can know what character poses you need, so you arent building rigs or hand poses that you wont use in the end, speeding up your animation process.

But as i said, i get so pumped to get down and animate i just animate as i go.

I also animate two character's dialogue in one anme file too. I just take the recorded audio and mix it together in Adobe Audition export as WAV file, then use the padsound script to start the audio file at the correct timeline position... then i must be the only guy i know that does the lip sync in ASP with the switch layers... ive used papagayo and it seems like just an extra step that isnt any faster.

Hey and nice job making a full length animation Areyouguystwins, that is sooo much work and its inspiring to see people embarking on those projects. Since nowadays we can do on our laptops what used to take a studio and hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment, a creative mind has more tools than ever and its great that people are taking advantage of it!

[knunk]

Sorry areyouguystwins. I rattled your cage there...

LOL! I always love how people in the "biz" always seem to think that only THEY have the "right answers

No need to take it personally guys, you carry on as you are. I love 2 minute scenes.
But you really need to be looking at shorter scenes and a lot more than 70 of them for a movie. Pacing guys. Fast bits and slow bits. You cut for a reason, Some scenes may be 1 second long others 20. Dont let what ever software you use dictate how you make your film.

I'm offering advice here with all good intention. You know enough already? Good for you.

[slowtiger]

I bet I'm repeating myself here, but anyway: The scenes I work with are between 20 and 250 frames long, equals 1 to 10 seconds. Not longer. A scene of one minute would be long even in a feature length film. The only scenes of that length were introducing shots which consisted mostly of pans.

It could save some time to put several cuts from the same angle into one file, however. But I wouldn't try to squeeze shots from different angles into one AS file. Splicing is done in an editing software, later. So it doesn't matter if I have 70 AS files, or 700. The smaller the AS file, the better - especially if there is a small but existing risk of fucking up a file.

[areyouguystwins]

A scene of one minute would be long even in a feature length film. The only scenes of that length were introducing shots which consisted mostly of pans.

I don't agree, but we have had this discussion before of what I believe constitutes a scene and a "shot" in my current project. If I am wrong, so be it. As I said before, each person has determine their own "best" way to complete their animation project.

In my crazy world, I have read many production and spec screenplays of films that have been produced and many scenes in these well known screenplays are longer than one minute. In each scene the director determines the "shots" which breaks up the scenes, hence you get a flowing movie.

Understand I am basing my scenes upon our spec screenplay, the typical screenplay format one would "pitch" to the big guys. On average one page equals one minute in a spec screenplay. We have 105 pages in our spec screenplay, 70 scenes. Some of our scenes are longer than one page, some are shorter. We also have cut out some parts of the scenes as we animate so we will not end up with a 105 minute film, it will be closer to 80-85 mintues.

It could save some time to put several cuts from the same angle into one file, however. But I wouldn't try to squeeze shots from different angles into one AS file. Splicing is done in an editing software, later. So it doesn't matter if I have 70 AS files, or 700. The smaller the AS file, the better - especially if there is a small but existing risk of fucking up a file.

I agree the smaller Anime file the better. However, bucking the accepted trend in the "biz", we put all our shots in each Anime file for each scene. For example I just finished scene 30 which in total is about 4 minutes long (4 pages in the spec screenplay). This is the longest scene in our screenplay -- a big Halloween party scene.

I split the scene into three separate Anime files. In each file I have a main switch layer that switches between group folders of various angles and characters in the scene. Plus we use camera shots on the main switch layer.

I guess I don't understand why the designer of Anime would make switch layers and camera shots if Anime wasn't intended to be used more for setting up and "shooting" shots within the program itself instead of always relying on an external editing program.

The reason why I keep harping on this shot/scene topic is I believe a lot of director work can be done in Anime that is now being done in other programs (bar Anime's crashing problem in Windows using a main switch layer). We have proof of that with our project we are working on. I just want others to know -- -- especially new users of Anime -- the details of our workflow.

But as I said, everyone needs to find their own workflow which works for them.

[heyvern]

Just so we are on the same page as far as terminology:
A film is made up of "sequences". A "sequence" is made up of "scenes". A "scene" is made up of "shots".

A shot would be the smallest component of a film.

You may find this interesting:

http://www.cinemetrics.lv/database.php

A database of average shot length for a whole bunch of movies, old and new. Some people think shots are getting shorter and shorter in film making. From just scanning that database it would be hard to tell if they are getting shorter.

I have to agree that a 4 minute scene seems like an eternity. 4 minutes... one scene. A 4 minute scene with only 3 shots is more than a minute per shot. It would have to be a pretty compelling scene to keep people from dozing off. Sounds like "my dinner with andre".

If your party "scene" covers a lot of ground and moves about a bit and there are different characters interacting... maybe it isn't "one scene". It might be two or more... but with out seeing the script I couldn't say for sure.

You say you have 70 scenes and and a script that is 105 minutes but hope to produce a film between 80-85 minutes approximately. That would average out to say... between 1.2 to 1.5 minutes per scene. Then some scenes would be shorter... some longer. If you have a bunch of long scenes then you will have to have a bunch of really short scenes.

I will have to pay more attention to the "scenes" in movies now. I just can't recall a scene that lasted a really long time. Sometimes you think a scene is really really really long when in reality is like a minute or maybe two.

That's my 2 cents... I am not a film maker or experienced in any way with film making... I do however watch TONS OF MOVIES CONSTANTLY. I find my own dabbling in this I sort of involuntarily mimic what I have seen over the years as far as pacing, scenes and shots.

-vern

[slowtiger]

Again, repeated:
In animation the smallest segment between two cuts is called a "scene". This is the habit at least in Europe, but from what I've read also in america.

In life action the smallest segmet is called a "shot".

[heyvern]

Again, repeated:
In animation the smallest segment between two cuts is called a "scene". This is the habit at least in Europe, but from what I've read also in america.

In life action the smallest segmet is called a "shot".

That's really confusing. Whose idea was that? Crazy animators always have to be so dang contrary.



-vern

[areyouguystwins]

Just so we are on the same page as far as terminology:
A film is made up of "sequences". A "sequence" is made up of "scenes". A "scene" is made up of "shots". A shot would be the smallest component of a film.

Exactly. That is my take on how a film is set up. However, I use the term "Act" instead of "sequences." Our film has 3 acts, 70 scenes and I have no idea how many shots there will be all together -- but in our 4 minute scene (3 separate Anime files) I counted 47 shots.

All the shots were done in Anime.

A database of average shot length for a whole bunch of movies, old and new. Some people think shots are getting shorter and shorter in film making. From just scanning that database it would be hard to tell if they are getting shorter.

I think shots are getting shorter compared to say -- movies from the 30's and 40's.

I have to agree that a 4 minute scene seems like an eternity. 4 minutes... one scene. A 4 minute scene with only 3 shots is more than a minute per shot. It would have to be a pretty compelling scene to keep people from dozing off. Sounds like "my dinner with andre".

As I have stated numerous times we don't have 3 shots for our 4 minute scene, we have 3 Anime files. In those 3 Anime files we have compiled 47 shots using Anime's switch layers and camera tool.

If your party "scene" covers a lot of ground and moves about a bit and there are different characters interacting... maybe it isn't "one scene". It might be two or more... but with out seeing the script I couldn't say for sure.

The reason why the scene is 4 minutes long is because it takes place in one INTERIOR setting. Per spec scripts each INTERIOR, EXTERIOR settings you label as a scene. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how we set up our project. Again understand I am basing this on film scripts. If animated films are supposed to be a different set up, well right or wrong what we are using now seems to work for us.

You say you have 70 scenes and and a script that is 105 minutes but hope to produce a film between 80-85 minutes approximately. That would average out to say... between 1.2 to 1.5 minutes per scene. Then some scenes would be shorter... some longer. If you have a bunch of long scenes then you will have to have a bunch of really short scenes.

You are correct. We have animated up to scene 33 and with the transition cards spliced in the time of the film is currently 37 minutes.

I will have to pay more attention to the "scenes" in movies now. I just can't recall a scene that lasted a really long time. Sometimes you think a scene is really really really long when in reality is like a minute or maybe two.

Again, I am basing "scenes" on the spec script style. It is not a storyboard, nor is it a production script. Production scripts include shots in each scene. It will be hard to tell scenes by watching a movie, you need to actually read the original spec script or the production/shooting script to get a flavor of what the scenes are.

If one were to watch our Halloween scene, I am guessing most people wouldn't consider that one scene as we have 47 shots intertwined.

Anyway, getting back to the topic of this thread, the workflow for animating is up to the person or people doing the animation. Use whatever works to get the job done -- right or wrong. In the end animation and creating should be fun and not set into some rigid standard.

[FCSnow]

"To storyboard or not to storyboard, is that the question? Weather it is nobler to set sail on a sea of drawings or let the images simmer in ones mind."

I storyboard as I create my story. I storyboard for two reasons:

1. Sometimes I have to involve other people in my project such as voice people, who will do my character's dialog. It is helpful for them it they can see what their character is doing. And those who will provide the music. They can see the dramatic high points for the music. It is also useful if I have a Client, something to show them. Something they can sign off.

2. It fixes in my mind, what I have to think to turn these static images into an animate piece. I don't always see the problem I may have if I don't draw an image on paper first. Inside your head all things are possible. But on paper things may look a little different.

We all think differently about how to approach a project. The stroyboard was first created to get everyone thinking in the same direction.

Some movie were storyboarded and others were not. Who can say which ones were best?

FCSnow