using raster instead of vector for look?

producerism · Post by **producerism** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:17 pm

I am familiar with using both raster and vector sources for my characters in AS, however a good majority of my time is being spent in optimizing the images from Flash into Illustrator, into AS. (I do not make the characters myself, my artists use flash and illustrator).

I have found it much easier to just export the vector images at a very high resolution .PNG (seperated into body parts) and animating like that.

Are there any good reasons why I should consider a different method of animating? As far as I can tell, the only other option would be to get copies of AS for all my artists, and then train them on that, however I'm not sure that would be the better alternative, as they are great with what they each use now.

Any optimization tips perhaps? If it would help, I can post screenshots of how many points I'm talking about - from flash to illustrator, the head of one character is about 2000 points. After optimization I can get it to under 1000, however that is still an absurd amount, making it difficult to animate (slow).

human · Post by **human** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:51 pm

I can't answer your question, but I hope you don't mind if I ask you one.

Can you describe the optimization you mentioned? From the context, this seems to mean that excess points are culled out following vector import.

Is the culling done manually?

Can you describe what that is like in terms of skill required, time required, and tedium incurred?

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:20 pm

You can reduce the number of points in illustrator. There is a tool or filter of some kind. I forget what it's called off hand but I used it a lot when I was importing AI files early on learning Moho.

I would suggest reducing points dramatically. Run the "optimization" multiple times. I have found fewer points in the EPS or AI before AS import will not produce nearly as many points.

2000 points!? that's a lot of points even in Illustrator files. I started using AI back in the day when it would run out of points and you had to order refills...

... I'm kidding I'm kidding. But I did start out in the day of slower computers and that many points would have been outrageous and unnecessary... and most likely choked the printer.

This could be why I have better luck importing AI to AS... my AI files are very simplistic.

The key to the problem is the conversion process. Going from one application to another requires stupid computer automation. The only way to get true optimization is to draw in the final application.

Conversions are almost always going to have some cleanup required.

This is why there are so many tools for optimizing 3D file formats. No 3D program works the same way. You need to change from triangles to quads... reduce the poly count... increase the poly count... change the normal mapping... flip the world space axes... etc etc.

There just aren't as many tools for conversions in the area of 2d vector format... especially with AS since its format is totally unique and not used by any other application.

-vern

producerism · Post by **producerism** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:28 pm

Can you describe the optimization you mentioned?

for example, the characters will be drawn in flash, using a wacom tablet. Therefore, it's not simple splines creating the lines, but fills, which are ultimately made up of many points.

I export the flash image as an .AI, then inside of AI I select all points along what could be a simple spline, then just do Path -> Simplify. This works about 90% of the time, however it's not an option to select everything and simplify - it must be done in segments. If I spent an hour on each character, I could probably get everything to a good point for animation, however that seems like an hour of work that i dont really need to do.

While this certainly works, it takes much longer, and once simplified, I usuall have to re-edit certain points - which is a shame because the end product looks much worse than what i started with. Mind you, it loads fine - but it created such a lag within the program, it's unbearable at times.

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:00 pm

You have exactly the same workflow I had to deal with this year. Have a look at viewtopic.php?t=7967, you may find useful points there.

If there's still a chance to change, by any means get your artists to draw in AS right from the start - it will save you weeks of unnecessary work.

producerism · Post by **producerism** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:29 am

yes, i figured that would be the best method, however it just has so many disadvantages that go along with it, not the least of which is an added learning curve to an already long process, and yet another proprietary (and unique) format to incorporate into the mix.

At least flash and illustrator are somewhat universal, but not many people have heard of, let alone have copies of AS.

thanks for the link, i actually read over that this morning before posting - and bookmarked it for future reference.

The thing is, I don't mind the raster look, matter of fact I prefer it in many ways, and since I'm using high quality scans / renders as the body parts, I can render an animation out of AS and have it looking great. Other than the obvious editing limitations which would otherwise be present with vector objects, are there any disadvantages to using raster objects? I would hate to get halfway into the process, then find out something won't work right - but so far, it's worked for me.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:50 am

The only really big problem that raster could cause is fixed resolution.

You are stuck with what ever size you decide to go with for the images. If you need a close up of a particular scene and the files are not at a high enough resolution pixelation will occur.

If you use very tight story boards and plan ahead carefully this can be avoided.

Another issue is that image layers in AS will take a lot longer to render.

-vern

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:24 am

I've worked with a combination of vector and raster during that project, and I found using PNGs a timesaver. Maybe the rendering took longer, but for me it was more important to get a quick screen update when moving things around, and this suffered from too many points when I had background elements as vector layers.

Parts which just move as cutputs should be done as PNGs, it makes things much easier. As for resolution: I used to render those parts out of Flash separately for each scene in AS, and in the size I needed.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:44 am

An additional plus to using vector graphics is that rotating objects (turning heads etc) are easier to produce.

producerism · Post by **producerism** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:12 pm

slowtiger wrote:I've worked with a combination of vector and raster during that project, and I found using PNGs a timesaver. Maybe the rendering took longer, but for me it was more important to get a quick screen update when moving things around, and this suffered from too many points when I had background elements as vector layers.

pretty much where I am at. Luckily the fixed resolution won't be much of a problem - the png files I'm using are more than big enough for even the closest of shots.

Looks like PNGs will be the route for most of the characters, thanks for the replies!