Freehand drawing with pen and Shapes Frustrating

[grimble67]

I have a graphics tablet, and when I draw freehand and attempt to "fill" my drawing, I get in to all kinds of difficulties. For example, I drew the top of a tree, and I wanted the outline to be "bushy". In order to achieve an artistic style, I wanted to "sketch" with the pen.

Once the tree top was complete (and it looked "enclosed" already) it took me a further 10 minutes to maticulously use the transform point tool to "weld" all the little points together. Only then was I able to transform the drawing in to a shape, and give it a fill.

This additional 10 minutes of fussing with the picture completely drained me of my artistic high. After drawing two trees in this fashion, I was tired out.

I hate to keep harkening back to Flash, but the drawing tool in Flash seemed to flow much better (much less jerky), and it was able to detect shapes and enclosed spaces much more efficiently and with less prompting from me.

Part of the problem is that Moho has no visual clues as to which points are joined, and which points are simply near each other. You have to zoom right in, start moving them around, and see what other points move with it. If you have a complex drawing, like a bush, you're doomed. (an interesting visual cue would this: if you try to create a shape from a drawing that is not enclosed, a flashing line could indicate where the gap is).

I love Moho's bone animation, camera tracking and pseudo-3D effects, but the most important aspect of any program like this is the drawing feature. The last thing I want to do is draw everything in a separate program and import it in. One major problem with that technique is that Moho recommends that you draw your characters with each limb on a different layer - how can you do this if you're drawing them in different programs?

I've already been advised to use a separate program for sound effects and yet a different one to splice Moho scenes together: please don't tell me I have to use a different drawing program, too!

[Lost Marble]

As frustrating as drawing that tree sounds, you may have gained some experience for the future. Next time, turn on the "Auto close" and "Auto fill" checkboxes when drawing such shapes with the freehand tool.

[myles]

I drew the top of a tree, and I wanted the outline to be "bushy". In order to achieve an artistic style, I wanted to "sketch" with the pen.

You're fighting the tools. Think Saturday morning cartoons - think simple, blobby shapes. Think the Add Point tool rather than the freehand tool. This is where Moho really excels.
You'll notice that Saturday morning cartoons rarely have the heavy detailed appearance of some of the more artistic editorial cartoons.

You can achieve a somewhat "bushy" look using Moho's noise tools - draw a simple smooth shape, then change the noise settings for that layer.

Example (bottom right-hand shape):


(Click on the thumbnail for a larger view)

Or design a brush for drawing tools - I tried using Moho's existing brushes, but I think a bush deserves it's own leafy brush.
Hmm, it occurred to me as I was posting this that you can probably combine the two - noisy outlines plus a brush.

Quick check - yes, you can:


If your tree isn't going to animate, or can be automated by bone warping, you can create it in another program and import it into Moho as an image layer (with an alpha layer if you want your character behind the tree) - I know you say you don't want to do this, but if your artistic style is important to you it might be easier.

This is a good way to go if you need complex artistic backgrounds for your simple cartoony characters. If you're willing to use simpler cartoon backgrounds for your cartoon characters then you can do it all in Moho.

Moho recommends that you draw your characters with each limb on a different layer - how can you do this if you're drawing them in different programs?

Import each limb as a separate layer, after creating each limb on a separate layer in your other software. However, there is no need to draw your characters in other software - you can do it in Moho.

You're designing a hinged shadow puppet or paper doll, so each limb needs to be a complete piece - the software can't imagine what the part of the arm behind the body looks like.

Regards, Myles.

[grimble67]

Thank you for your considered response. You're right, I'm fighting with the tools. I got some more practice this weekend, and drew a nice "hut" inside Moho. I still found the tools a little "stifling", though.

I want my drawings to look in Moho like they would if I drew them on paper. If I draw in photoshop, or (dare I say it?) Flash, I can get pretty close. There is something in Moho about the way points are distributed, and how they weld/don't weld, and how shapes are difficult to close, that make the freehand tool (with tablet) a difficult option. Even the short delay from tablet to screen that occurs in Moho, but doesn't seem to occur in other drawing programs, causes me problems.

I was trying to draw a face last night... just a simple cartoony one... and I couldn't pull it off.

If you're right, and I should go with different tools (brushes, add-point, etc) instead of the freehand tool, then I can do that; but I fear my own drawing style will be lost. Plus, I spent good money on this tablet, and I want to use it, darn it!

[myles]

I want my drawings to look in Moho like they would if I drew them on paper.

A fair comment - I'd say draw them on paper first, scan them in, and use them as tracing images in Moho. Again, keep it simple and cartoony for best results- less detail means easier creation and animation. I'd recommend using the Add Points tool for complete control over where your points are distributed. Use the freehand tool to start with if you must, but you may still have to tweak manually to get things set up for later animation.

With the freehand tool, you need to move a certain distance and a certain angle before each new point is generated, in order to generate less points. Some people (myself included) set fairly large values for these settings in order to get less points, which can give the impression that response is very slow, but is actually Moho waiting for you to move further before it will generate a point.

I'll have to wait until I get back to my PC with a tablet before I can test response time compared to a mouse for freehand drawing.

If I draw in photoshop, or (dare I say it?) Flash, I can get pretty close. There is something in Moho about the way points are distributed, and how they weld/don't weld, and how shapes are difficult to close, that make the freehand tool (with tablet) a difficult option.

Photoshop filling is a simple raster flood technique, which doesn't lend itself to animation.
I haven't seen it myself, but l'm prepared to admit Flash has a rather nice sophisticated fill-shape creation tool from what I've heard of it - a sort of flood-fill;autotrace effect from what I've heard, which would be nice to have in Moho.
In Moho, to get fillable shapes you have to draw complete welded loops, not just overlapping lines.

Auto-weld (as opposed to manual point-to-point welding), works best when the end of a line is dragged over another point or a line. (Note: auto-weld is different from auto-close.) If you want two points in the middle of two lines to weld, use manual welding. Learning the keyboard shortcuts (especially for Freehand, Translate, Group, and Enter to de-select) make life easier. Also, plan your lines so they mostly end touching another line or point to get the best out of auto-weld.

If you're right, and I should go with different tools (brushes, add-point, etc) instead of the freehand tool, then I can do that; but I fear my own drawing style will be lost.

Again, I'd say scan then trace - it may feel less spontaneous than drawing directly in Moho, but it helps preserves the style. Not as quick as sketching freehand, but what you lose in drawing time spent tracing the pencil sketch you gain in not having to redraw the character every frame of the animation.

If your style isn't simple Saturday-morning cartoony, you may have more work ahead of you than if it were a simpler style.

Plus, I spent good money on this tablet, and I want to use it, darn it!

Heh - tablets, while fun, are less of an advantage in vector programs compared to paint programs. However, you can use a tablet with other tools than the freehand tool - just as a very slim mouse.

Regards, Myles.

[Hiddicop]

I must say that I can't see whats so hard in freehand drawing, even if not using the auto-close and auto-fill options. If you want a brushy outline, there are several ways to fix it. You can use brushes (as mentioned above) and you can use noisy shapes and outlines in the vectorlayer-options using a scale of maybe 3. If you want a nice fill, you can use splotchy with a magnitude of about twenty and the scale 2-8. It will end up looking even better if drawing with free-hand simple lines with a bit darker color then the tree and giving them a softedge (value 3 i recommend). It will look great.

I'm not too found of the adding-points drawing cause I think it (as grimble67 mentioned) takes away the personal drawing style, and I only use it for simple shapes that need to be perfectly symmetric.

[TDolce]

I know where Grimble is coming from and trust me it is the exact reason that I haven't been able to embrace Moho 100%. Moho has so much going for it that I continue to keep coming back with every version update. I have a very quick hand or fast pen style that just doesn't work well with Moho period. I don't think this makes Moho a bad app or myself possessing a bad style,..it's just a fact for me. This being said,...in all fairness,..very few apps have been able to keep up with me other than The Tab animation program. The Tab is also 900 bucks and is far from perfect in other areas too!

I tried the importing of scans or other image files form other apps to "trace" as was suggested earlier, but it did not help. It wasn't so much the fact that I couldn't get the Moho pen tool to work as it was the lack of response from the pen or the spontaneity of the pen. This is something that is very difficult to explain to someone with a different drawing style.

What saves me is that my characters are usually very simple based on a foundation of simplistic shapes. Because of this mere fact,..the line variation (or "line interest" as I like to call it) MUST be EXACTLY as I intended it to be.

I haven't found an animation app that is perfect yet and usually they all present artistic challenges to various drawing styles and forces one to bcome creative in their approach with the software. This goes back to what has always driven me batty about software apps that force the user to be adaptive rather than the other way around.

Flash is to me far less adaptive to my style than Moho is though and I'm still working hard to find that solution or workaround with Moho. It may be that there just isn't a solution within Moho for me to work with,..but quite honestly, I need more time before I can make this statement.

Quite possibly just using my favorite app (Xara X) as my source for design and then importing into Moho for animation purposes may very well be my best answer to my issues.

This is where my excitement and anticipation for LivingCels was because having the line response that it had and the animation features that it had was UNBELIEVABLE! Problem though: LivingCels is no longer around and although being retooled at the present by Microsoft, it is just not available. I think Moho with it's bones ability is the current best solution out there and not to mention the unbelievable price tag! It's worth me going over and over the processes to find a solution for me that I can live with.

Todd