correct import process from illustrator?

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starchild
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correct import process from illustrator?

Post by starchild »

hi everyone!
I'm not new to animation but I'm new to Anime Studio, so I've got one or two questions.

What I wanna do is simply scan my drawings,->make the 'tracing' on illustrator-> animate the drawings with Anime Studio.

Consider I'm saving the files in .ai format, ('Illustrator 8' compatible, by the way).

Then, when I import any of these drawing-now vector-files in AS, turns out that the final vector image is kinda "rounded", like it has been "traced" a lot of times, cause the lines are on the correct position, but kinda "deformed"...

I dunno if there's a better way to do what I'm trying to do here (simply animate scanned drawings), but I would really appreciate some help here.... I'm still a newbie :)
thanx in advance!
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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

The math used to create the curves in AS and Illustrator are very different.

I don't know anything about... mathematical curve description stuff... others here no way more than me about that...

... but I am very familiar with the differences in how they work in each application.

Illustrator uses bezier curves... with... some kind of quad... curve.... point... thingy... whatever...

Anyway in Illustrator you have those handles that can move and stretch independently all over the place to define a precise curve.

AS doesn't do it that way. It uses some other type of math to define curves. The curve "handles" are locked together and are basically "invisible"... you can't manipulate them independently. You can basically increase the curve (fatter, rounder) or decrease the curve (thinner pointier).

Because of these differences you can't get a "perfect" translation from AI to AS. It is close but not perfect.

The reason AS has different style for the curves is BECAUSE it is for animation. AI is aimed at print. AS is aimed at motion. The curve behavior in AS is NOT PERFECT... but it is better for animation than other curve descriptions. This is one of the reasons people like it.

Many users of AS find this to be a big problem however. From the translation point of view... it is a big problem.

If you can't get exactly what you drew in AI into AS... then you can either... live with it... or spend the time to "fix" it in AS. Neither is satisfying for an artist who wants things... perfect.

Many new users of AS come in with skills developed in traditional drawing programs like AI or Freehand etc.

When they encounter the unusual drawing style needed in AS... it can be frustrating... very frustrating.

When I started using AS (Moho at the time) I imported AI drawings exactly as you describe. I also... went through the process of "fixing" those imported drawings and was very dissatisfied with that process.

I kept saying to myself, "It takes too long... it's frustrating... why can't AS work like those other tools?"

After some effort and practice practice practice, I learned to get use to the drawing style needed in AS. I even learned how to draw... a bit differently in AI to avoid some of the translation problems.

Eventually however I realized the only way to get exactly what I needed in AS in the least amount of time was to learn the tools in AS as well as I could, and draw everything in AS.

At that point even though I still was more comfortable in AI, had more experience with other drawing tools... I was producing much faster using AS since I had avoided the "fixing" step required. I eliminated a lot of the "frustration" because I knew what AS could do, and I knew how it would look as I did it. Going from AI to AS you are never sure exactly how it will look. Changes are going to be needed.

After a longer while, I started to LIKE the "weird" new program better than AI.

You can import scans for tracing in AS just as easily as in AI. You can export drawings from AI to use for tracing in AS. Or you could import AI format into AS and use THAT for tracing... or pull out elements that don't need to be redrawn.

Another option would be to just animate image files in AS. This works as well... but limits the options a bit.

Sorry for the long post. I get a bit of flack around here for supporting the drawing tools in AS and saying they actually work if you take the time to learn them. However much they may "suck" they do work well if you learn how to use them.

The drawing tools in AS are NOT like AI or Freehand or anything else. The tools in AS are unique to AS.

-vern
myles
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Post by myles »

Greetings,

I'd like to add my voice in support of Vern and other users (such as one other user's heartfelt plea in the Feature Requests section not to change to standard Bezier splines) liking the AS drawing tools.

I feel Lost Marble has made a useful, flexible, and predictable compromise for the drawing tools by "locking and hiding the handles" (using point magnitude to control the curve rather than handles).

Once you learn a few keyboard shortcuts and gain a familiarity with how they work, my opinion (not necessarily shared by all AS users) is that AS splines are as quick and capable for drawing as Beziers or B-splines.

Like Vern, I've used and continue to use Bezier and B-spline tools for static illustrations (for myself, mostly Expression and Xara, with some recent dabbling in DrawPlus, rather than AI and Freehand), but I wouldn't want to always use completely unlocked Beziers for animation (although B-splines might be a definite possibility, having the bones affect the off-spline control points).

Perhaps my viewpoint is partly because my introduction to drawing and animating splines came more through 3D animation/modelling software such as Animation:Master (and sPatch, Jpatch, and Hamapatch), which used by default a "locked-hidden mirror-handle" technique similar to AS, and less through illustration software.

I can still remember when, in a later version, Animation:Master exposed handles for the splines as many users had requested - and guess what? also got some flack from some users because tweaked handles didn't react as predictably when the main node points were animated by bones. The standard "locked-handle" A:M/AS spline reacts fairly predictably when animated by bones. Tweaked "unlocked" handles can sometimes animate weirdly, giving bulges and creases where users don't expect them.

However, it is possible to have several conflicting points of view, none of which are either absolutely correct or incorrect (think of it as a circular spectrum of colours rather than black and white halves - or even a linear gradient of shades of grey), and I think that's the situation we've got here - no amount of convincing argument from any one "colour" will completely change any of the others. :)

There are definite advantages to "fully unlocked" AI-style Beziers, and I can see why some people would like to have them. There are advantages to AS "locked" Beziers, and I can see why Lost Marble chose them. (There are advantages to B-splines too.)

For the moment, all you can do is put your name on the feature request (and try not to complain if you get what you asked for :) ) and work with the tools that are available.

My current coloured opinion, fairly close in the spectrum to Vern's: Creating your characters in AS (rather than going through an intermediate program) will give you more satisfying results for animation - you will have direct curvature control, and control over point creation and placement. However, there is no "autotrace" feature - you will have to trace scanned drawings manually.

Regards, Myles.
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted."
-- Groucho Marx
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heyvern
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Post by heyvern »

One of the things that Mike (creator of Moho/AS) said about changing the curve handle... thingy... is backward compatibility... it would be... upsetting to those with lots of effort in the old style of curves having to fix all their old files.

The thought has been posed to have an "alternate" spline... thingy... along side the old way. From what I've heard... it won't be an easy thing to pull off.

----------------------------------
p.s. Holy cow!

Myles... you used A:M before curve handles? I'm impressed.

I never knew it didn't have them.

;)

-vern
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slowtiger
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Post by slowtiger »

(Note to self: one day get a hold on heyvern and extract all those unnecessary elipses... and linebreaks from him, just to make his postings readable *fg*)

Uhm, what he said.

The main goal shouldn't be "How do I get my Illustrator stuff unchanged into AnimeStudio?". If you need to keep that Illustrator look, the question should be "Which program does import AI with the least changes?".

If your focus is on animation in AS, then your question should be "Which style, which kind of character works reasonably good in AS?", and, of course, "Which workflow is the most efficient?".

I found the curve handling in AS a bit odd, but easily manageable. The only thing I really miss is a defined sharp corner at one point, like in Freehand which still is my favourite vector program.
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel »

The old Animo 1.8 and later versions 3.x used Bezier curves: The biggest advantage is you need less points to describe a curve. Text and the like always looked sharp. In AS, the conversion of TrueType bezier to AS results in some very odd changes creeping in.

I understand both sides of the arguement but having used both Animo with Beziers and AS with the locked whatevers, I generally favour bezier/hermite/bicubic formulas because of the precision, the finer control. Yes it can be more fiddly but ultimately the final result is better.

But if I recall correctly, Mike said before the way the lines are constructed are different from the Bezier/ paramentric curves approach - if so, the concept of using beziers with the handles turned off may not be practical.

If it can be done, turniong the handles on or off when reguired, then it would be a wonderful compromise and I'd welcome it.

Rhoel
starchild
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Post by starchild »

hi there. Thanx for all the nice replying.

the thing is: I'd love to do all my work inside AS, in fact I even got a Wacom tablet.

but I'm having a hard time with these tools. When I try to draw "free-hand" style, using pencil or something, there's always a mis-interpretation of what I'm doing.

AS doesn't easily CONNECT lines (I try to "begin" next line from where the first 'stopped', but AS doesn't seems to recognize them as "two lines together resulting in a single drawing", even tought they're sometimes SO close together...I always have to zoom it to the max, and connect the lines...it's too much work.
And if i choose "join lines" (sorry, forgot the real option name), it does it EVERY time, even with lines that - this time- are not supposed to be joined. Hope u got the point! Sorry, i'm just a Photoshop-guy!

I mean, I'm kinda lost. Are there any tutorials out there? Is it easier to do it using curves, not "free-hand" style drawings?

thanx for any tip. I'm excited with the software, but really disappointed for not finding a good solution to get started drawing!
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel »

starchild wrote:hi there. Thanx for all the nice replying.

the thing is: I'd love to do all my work inside AS, in fact I even got a Wacom tablet.

but I'm having a hard time with these tools. When I try to draw "free-hand" style, using pencil or something, there's always a mis-interpretation of what I'm doing.

AS doesn't easily CONNECT lines (I try to "begin" next line from where the first 'stopped', but AS doesn't seems to recognize them as "two lines together resulting in a single drawing", even tought they're sometimes SO close together...I always have to zoom it to the max, and connect the lines...it's too much work.
And if i choose "join lines" (sorry, forgot the real option name), it does it EVERY time, even with lines that - this time- are not supposed to be joined. Hope u got the point! Sorry, i'm just a Photoshop-guy!

I mean, I'm kinda lost. Are there any tutorials out there? Is it easier to do it using curves, not "free-hand" style drawings?

thanx for any tip. I'm excited with the software, but really disappointed for not finding a good solution to get started drawing!
You will find using the "Add Point" method of construction characters better than using the pencil tool. The pencil just adds too many points, which makes animating later difficult.

As for the line joining when they are not suposed to - turn off the auto-weld (you will see it at the top of the drawing window when in "add point" (A) mode. If you want to join two points, use the space bar to "weld".

regards

Rhoel.
starchild
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Post by starchild »

thanx for the advices! I had positive results trying to draw inside the software today...i guess it's a matter of patience and time to learn...

I'm using just the 'add tool'... still learning but... a dumb question:
when I want to make 'straight' lines (a car, for example), all that I have to do is add more points so it'll get the right "straight" shape?
(cause I observed that: with less points, more curves)..or is there a shortcut?

I'm really new to vectors. It has been a pain! I'm a photoshop-addicted guy!

last question: is there a shortcut-list for these nice stuff (like the one u told me, welding->using space bar, etc..)?

thanx in advance!
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel »

starchild wrote:thanx for the advices! I had positive results trying to draw inside the software today...i guess it's a matter of patience and time to learn...

I'm using just the 'add tool'... still learning but... a dumb question:
when I want to make 'straight' lines (a car, for example), all that I have to do is add more points so it'll get the right "straight" shape?
(cause I observed that: with less points, more curves)..or is there a shortcut?

I'm really new to vectors. It has been a pain! I'm a photoshop-addicted guy!

last question: is there a shortcut-list for these nice stuff (like the one u told me, welding->using space bar, etc..)?

thanx in advance!
There are some helpfully tutorials which come packaged with AS - many of the shortcuts and shape creation are in there. The T, C and W keys are all used a lot with model building. The T is for moving points around, C for controling the strength of the curves and the W is for controling line width. G selects/deselects an object. Q selects the shape whilst U creates a new fill.

How to use the styles etc is a subject all by itself but worth learning.

BTW, this kind of question is best asked in How do I? section. Many other good topics and other help from previous newbie questions.

Good luck,

Rhoel.
myles
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Post by myles »

starchild wrote:when I want to make 'straight' lines (a car, for example), all that I have to do is add more points so it'll get the right "straight" shape?
That is one way to do it. Another way (perhaps better?) is to just use a single point at each end of straight line, but convert those points to "peaked".

Select the points on either end of the soon-to-be straight section using the Select Points tool, then click on the Peak tool
or
select them one at a time with the Translate Points tool then just hit P).

This will change the curve slightly outside the straight line, you may want to add another point on either side of the straight section to adjust the curve.
starchild wrote:last question: is there a shortcut-list for these nice stuff (like the one u told me, welding->using space bar, etc..)?
Menu shortcuts are beside the menu entries, toolbar shortcuts should show as a tooltip pop-up when you hover over a toolbar button, and the others are mainly in the Appendix at the very bottom of the user manual's table of contents.

For joining curves, just drag the very last point of one line over the end (or any point or part of the line if you don't want an end-to-end connection) of another line (it doesn't have to be exact, just near enough), and hit the Space-bar.

I've created a little step-by-step walkthrough for you.

If you prefer you can animate your Photoshop work directly - but you need to break your characters into pieces in Photoshop first (similar to this tutorial for Flash - see also this tutorial).


Regards, Myles.
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Rasheed
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Post by Rasheed »

myles wrote:I've created a little step-by-step walkthrough for you.
That is another excellent tutorial, Myles!
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Gnaws
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Post by Gnaws »

I've created a little step-by-step walkthrough for you.
Hey, nicely done Myles. Thanks!!
starchild
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Post by starchild »

wow, thanx a lot! what a nice tutorial. You guys are very kind. big thanx.

And sorry...i shoul've post this in the "how do..." section but completely forgot about its existence.

I'm starting to get excited about the software. Wish me luck!
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