An -Universal Depth Mode-Or-Groupal Depth Mode- is ESSENTIAL

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Rai López
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An -Universal Depth Mode-Or-Groupal Depth Mode- is ESSENTIAL

Post by Rai López »

Well, perhaps this post must be in Feature Requests... With Sort Layers By Depth and True Distance activated (I've tried with any combination each other), If I have two (or more) groups with several layers inside and I want that a simple layer in one group be in front of another simple layer of the other group (variating his Z depth, of course), I CAN'T DO IT :!: because ALL layers in one group are always over or under than the other layers in other group... Well, seems that each group has his own "space rules" and they can´t "intervene" each other... A Pity because, in my opinion, this limits enormously all the posibilities of the program, especially in very complex animations with a lot of layers, where we are obligated to organize them in groups... A check box, for example, in Depth Sort tab and Proyect Setting Dialogue, that let us to choose between an "Universal Depth Mode" or a "Groupal Depth Mode" It'd save our lifes, well in my case I don't exaggerate (belive me), because this is the main cause of my headaches! :evil: Well, I wondered if everybody think the same and if all of us would want a feature like this...
Last edited by Rai López on Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gont
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I agree completely!

Post by gont »

This is exactly what I am looking for myself!!! I hope if in any way possible this will be included in the future. There are so many situations where this feature would be needed. For example: a character picking up things from a table. The arms need to be in front of the table while the torso (obviosly) has to stay behind. The objects appear behind the hands once the hand picks them up, and so forth and so on...

We should post this in the "Feature Requests" as well...
Toontoonz
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Post by Toontoonz »

Does turning on or off the "Sort layers by Depth" and "Sort by true Distance" in Project settings and/or within the layers (Layer Settings > Depth Sort >"Sort layers by Depth" and "Sort by true Distance") effect your situations?
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gont
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Post by gont »

...well, as for me the "sort layers by depth" and "sort layers by true distance" does change something, but not the way it is supposed to. It seems that layers get sorted without any comprehensible order. Even if i put one layer way in front of the other - because it's part of a bone layer it stays behind the one above in the layer-menu.

I've also tried moving around the origin point - with no result.
mason
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Post by mason »

Right now the layer dialog is used for organizing the art and determining depth. You want the functions to be seperated, i.e. one dialog for logical groups like 'Character', and another for depth sorting.

I'd be interested to see something like that.
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rylleman
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Post by rylleman »

I want to add my support for this Moho improvement. I can't see LMs motives behind just allowing depth sorting within the same group. Would you care to explain LM?
Now I'm at a situation where depth sorting over all layers and groups would solve a problem in an eye blinks time, instead I have to solve it by a quite complex mask procedure which is going to give me a headache during the whole project and I don't even want to think about how much time (and in production time is money) this is going to waste for us.
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Post by Lost Marble »

rylleman wrote:Would you care to explain LM?
It's more of a technical imitation than a conscious choice. When rendering, Moho processes layers from the bottom to the top. If a group layer is encountered, it is treated as a single layer - all the contents of the group must be rendered before Moho moves on to the next layer in the list.

When depth sorting is on, it changes the order that layers are rendered, but not how group layers are treated - a group layer is still treated as a single object.

If Moho started rendering parts of groups in different orders, mixed in with layers from other groups, that would involve some serious restructuring of the program.
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Post by Rai López »

Uf... LM, I can imaginate the difficult of all that, it seems not so easy like add a simple check box and it's a pity, yes... But I suppose that you know too that big changes like this (now I'm thinking too in the "Quality Render" issue) must arrive sooner or later... The program is very limited actually for the past in some ESSENTIAL aspects and this can not be so forever (or I hope so...) I know that this changes can not come tomorrow, or next week or month... but, well, I hope (at least) that you are considereing this for can get it in the most near "possible" future, because we are talking about SO important and basic things for the well being of the program and users that is difficult believe his actuall situation... I know about all that effort for your part and understand your situation, cause of this (and although my actuall madness/headaches about this issue :x ) I say you THANK YOU :D for all that GREAT work that you are doing and for keep Moho SO alive :D ...CHEER UP!!! 8)

*CIAO*
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Post by Max Power »

Maybe this is one of those things, like audio sequencing, that Moho doesnt really need to do.

If you did the main work in Moho, then moved into another program with those files like flash, premier, whatever, then your problem might be fixed with some clever layering and editing.


Of course, I do not understand the specifics of your problem. I guess I'm trying to say there still might be an easy way to do what you want without a total rewrite of the software .


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Post by Rai López »

Jaja, yes... I'm afraid that there is a way, yes... and it's using another totaly different program! Well, maybe some day another company will make another program that can open *.moho files and let me solve this kind of ESSENTIAL issues, maybe, who knows... :roll:

...Remenber that I'm talking about a disfunction on a ESSENTIAL feature that exist in the program (not like audio sequencing issue), is not a problem with me, because I think that the results that I want are not a madness, simply ask for a good funcionality of the program... when I buy a Walkman, if it doesn't work propertly Sony returns my money, in this case I don't want my money (I think it's in good hands now), but I hope some undestanding by LM part and can be sure that he do all that he can about all of this, well, I am sure, but I say this because in other occasions he said that there would be no way to repair something and then he've found some *MAGIC* solution...

PS: I know about the difficult of this specific issue, but like I've said I want only be SURE, CIAO!
Last edited by Rai López on Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lost Marble »

Yes, I can certainly understand why you would want such a feature. I think the more likely solution will be to add z-buffering to Moho. This way, the layer ordering does not need to change in order for all layers to interact in depth. Plus, you could even have 2D layers that intersect in 3D space if they are rotated at slightly different angles in space.

I can go into more detail about z-buffering, but if you know what I'm talking about, do you think this sounds like a good solution to the depth-ordering issue?
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Post by Squeakydave »

If it means that I can use particle layers (Ie a forest!) and am then able to place other layers inside of it It gets my vote!
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Rai López
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Post by Rai López »

Lost Marble wrote:I can go into more detail about z-buffering, but if you know what I'm talking about, do you think this sounds like a good solution to the depth-ordering issue?
LM, THANK YOU fot your post (very much) ...I know about Z-buffering and I think that if this feature could be added to the Vector layers it'd be PERFECT! :D I've been thinking (and asking) for this possibility since you add 3D layers and Z-buffer option like the more easy/probable solution, and I've been wondering all this time why this could not be possible in Vector/Image layers... I thought that the problem could be in the old vector layers programation or prewiew speed or masking compatibility, (althought in 3D layers there is no problem with that)... I think that adding a Z-buffer check box (like in 3D Layers), for total compatibility between users it'd be a GOOD solution for this problem and THE BEST NEW OF THE YEAR!!! :D :D :D ...THANK YOU (again) VERY MUCH FOR CONSIDERING! I'm waiting for this since I knew Moho because I'm sure that it'd open a whole new world of possibilities and it'd be a really IMPORTANT improvement, I can be sure and think that most other users too... THANKS! :D
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Post by Rai López »

Squeakydave wrote:If it means that I can use particle layers (Ie a forest!) and am then able to place other layers inside of it It gets my vote!
And... YEAH! :D Squeakydave, with the Z-buffer solution you could do that and much more! You can experimenting now with 3D objects and Particle Layers (imagine that this 3D objects are your 2D characters) and you will see that you are TOTALLY free to put anything anywhere, with pixel precission and with NO restrictions about Groups, layer ordering, Origin, etc... Well, then you only imagine all this Z-buffer liberty with your vector/image characters and your vector/image backgrounds! :D With "Z-BUFFERING POWER" there would be NO LIMITS! and any workflow would be clearly IMPROVED! Without any doubth, It'd be a DREAM! :roll: I think... :D
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Post by Víctor Paredes »

This is a quote from myself (from a forum nobody read :( ). it could be an alternative of z-buffer (or maybe it could complement with that)


Please, read this message kindly.

I do not write well in English, but I’ve got an idea to solve the problem with the layers order.

This is hard to explain, but users like Ramón always make comments on it.

Moho has a problem when it comes to modifying the order in which layers are placed. For instance, you have created a character and you want that character to put his hand inside his pocket. The pocket layer would be behind the hand layer, which forces you to think in different ways to get the result you are looking for. Having different groups of layers makes problems like this very hard to solve.

Ramón has proposed creating a “Z buffer”, in which the order of the layers would be their Z depth. The render process won’t work according to the groups of layers, but to it’s position in Z.

I think Ramon’s idea is pretty good, but it forces you to work with a Z depth. Moho is a great 2d software and I think a good solution should consider its 2d nature.

Considering that, I suggest:

A second layer window.

According to this, you would create and order your characters and the rest of your work in any way you want using the current layer window. But if you want to change the order during the animation process, you would be able to use a second layer window.

This second window would be the same as the previous one, but it will allow you to break the layer groups, according to the order in which you want the objects to appear.

Back to our example, if you want the pocket layer to be in the place where the hand layer is, you could take the hand layer and move it on. This movement will be recorded in the timeline (which will have to consider a special item for it), so all the movements you create during the animation process will be recorded and susceptible to modifications.

Finally, if you want the pocket to be underneath the hand again, you should grab the pocket layer and put it back to its original place.
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