Suggestions for Moho to go OPEN SOURCE. Discuss

[heyvern]

Besides that everything isn't about money these days, but also about helping out others and give other ideas for their work, innovation spawns the best programs, you get more innovation into your project if you open source it.. you've got loads of other programmers that's interested in improving your work, introducing new bugs or not.. you'll get free ideas and eventually a better program.

I would suggest that anyone who thinks we need a "Moho-like" open source program to create one of their own. With all of those free workers out there to make it better... should be pretty simple.

Don't even make a program... post an... empty text file that doesn't do anything... and just include a bunch of use cases... let someone else do all the work.

I kid... I'm just having some fun...

... but seriously. Why not bug Adobe to make Photoshop open source?

The Gimp isn't "open source Photoshop" but it's dang close... except for the convoluted interface.

We need a "MoGimpho".

I find open source applications in general have much WORSE gui's than paid software... only because I'm use to... standardized GUI's on the Mac. Win, Unix, Linux programs... they don't have guidelines for where things go. The GUI's are all over the place.

I always thought that was part of my "punishment" for using the "free stuff".



-vern

[Rasheed]

Nowadays, good (paid) lone coders start quality programs by creating the GUI first and then write the code. That's because the user experience is much more important than anything else. Building a solid GUI is perhaps one of the most difficult things there is and certainly one of the most challenging parts of programming.

Open source coding is mostly about the functionality and "someone else has to build a nice GUI", because that is often tied to a particular desktop (Windows, Mac OS X, Gnome, KDE, etc.) Building a cross platform GUI is more than often not a good thing, because you miss using platform specific features and fine tuning, and the result is a bland and uninspiring GUI. I'm sorry to say that Anime Studio is IMO no exception to this observation.

[myles]

I would suggest that anyone who thinks we need a "Moho-like" open source program to create one of their own. With all of those free workers out there to make it better... should be pretty simple.

Don't even make a program... post an... empty text file that doesn't do anything... and just include a bunch of use cases... let someone else do all the work.

Heh - although you're just having some fun, a lot of the work has already been done for them - they don't even need Moho code at all.

They could get layers and vector handling code from Inkscape, timeline and bones and IK code from Blender, and audio handling code from Audacity, not to mention other open source software such as Cinelerra and Synfig.

all the tousands of free libs and helpful source code makes it easier for any programmer to write new programs

Exactly, anyone who wants an open-source Moho equivalent just needs to get programming themselves to tie it all together, or possibly go use/test/contribute to Synfig, which already has working open source.
Isn't that one of the points of open source - code contribution from the users, according to their interests or needs?

Even if you aren't a programmer, you can create a sourceforge project site, create design/specification documents and GUI mockups, and start asking for interested programmers in the newsgroups and forums.
Perhaps you can motivate them with offers to do character design, artwork, websites, or animation.

If you decide to contribute to Synfig rather than start a new program, you can still write documentation, create examples and tutorials, contribute content and samples, and create bug reports.

Open source relies on user contribution, in all areas. Your enthusiasm and contribution could make the difference.

However, this particular forum isn't really going to get you started properly - it's for Moho/Anime Studio users, not developers.

Regards, Myles - past and present code contributor to open source.

[Guest]

We need a "MoGimpho".

LOL OMG thats funny!

This is interesting, I like the different point of views being brought forth. It appears alot in this area has yet to be divulged in and explored further. Though I would like to point out one comment by Rasheed:

And Blender, why isn't Blender listed here? Well, Blender is animation software. You can do character animation with Blender, but it is not particularly geared towards character animation. Therefore, Blender is not specialized character animation software for the entertainment industry.

Blender was released as Open source because other High end porgrams such as Maya and 3DSMax are inaccessible to the public at large. Sure they are professional tools but so is Blender. Remeber it started off as Closed source before being bought by funds raised to become Open Source. It is basically 'those' software mentioned, the usage of it and the output from the renderings is based purely on the skill of the graphic artist in my opinion. It is character animation software as much as Maya and 3DSMax. Give it a go, you may find striking similarities between it and Moho, except the 3D. The point of my argument is that Blender has 'VALUE' to the community at large and alot of the contributors to the project actually use Maya and 3DSMax aswell.

It is designed to be used intuitively (one hand on the keyboard for the hotkeys, and the other on the mouse), the screen design is also made to be customisable to individual users and the output from the program is pretty much on par with Maya and 3DSMax. (No doubt THAT comment will be quoted and put up for debate, but true nonetheless.)

So what value does Moho have and what can be implemented to make it better, if it were Open source hypothetically speaking?

[Fazek]

Well, I think it is a different programming style if you write a program as open source - it must be elegant, well commented in english, understandable by others. And it must have a very complex installation support. It is much easier to write a closed source program. I think many closed source programs could be just useless if they become open source because the source code is ugly. I don't think Photoshop. These big companies has internal rules so I think these programs are "open source" inside of the company.

I tried Synfig and it is just very confusing and hard to make anything (practically you can make nice stills, not animation). It has very good ideas but a very bad user interface.

Now I'm working on something for Lua, but it is just at the beginning. Lua could be a good platform to write a new animation program or just to expand Anime Studio. It is easy for the beginners too... With debugging PapagayoMOD, I learned a few about Python and I don't like it at all. And Lua has many already written expansion libraries, for example to use the platform independent wx GUI (the same used by Papagayo), to parse directories, to manage bitmap graphics etc.

My developed libraries right now:
- an animated channel support library (maybe I will drop and replace it with Lua code)
- a pixelmap based, but vector graphics library for rendering.

Of course I could use other, already written libraries. But some of them are not working on my computer, they are requiring to install huge things etc. I trying to think simple.
The computers are fast enough to do the most of the things in Lua.

Maybe I will make my own frontend for the wx GUI based on the wxLua library because it seems too confusing for me.

[heyvern]

So what value does Moho have and what can be implemented to make it better, if it were Open source hypothetically speaking?

Uh... everyone loved the name... a lot...

And...

if it was... free... then... no one would have to pay for it!
Oh... oh! Someone can add a whatsit, for that thing. You know? that thing with the doodad?

And then later... someone else could expand on the whatsit, and make it really cooler. And when I finish learning to be a programmer... I'm going to add a wicked word processor to OS MgimpHo.

---------------------------

Seriously... what is the motive here?

It makes no sense "fantasizing" about Moho being open source. It is like... "Application Pornography".

Moho is never going to be open source... I mean... like... never. I don't know this for a fact... but I would bet money on it as a sure thing.

It is too good. When all the rough edges get "filed down"... this thing is going to sell like hot cakes... and I mean... people all over the world will open their wallets... or whatever they use to hold credit cards in their part of the world... and buy AS.

I think Mike knew this all along... and EF saw it was true.

It would be like Adobe making Photoshop open source... why would they do it? Why isn't the question... there is no question... they wouldn't. I bet that thing brings in a lot of money.

And I believe... this IS about money... oh yeah. Moho is good for the animation "community"... and I think Mike is a really nice guy who enjoys helping people...

... but Mike and efrontier also want the bucks baby. They ALSO care about us as jingly bags of money hanging from a tree... as I would too. That might sound strong but no one seems to see that open source has a very vague cash flow... concept.

The money seems... ethereal... like sifting moisture from the air... when getting water from the faucet is so much easier... we as customers... are the faucet. Selling "subscriptions" for open source "support" is... that other weird thing that I don't know how to do... so I buy an Evian.

If you are really serious start a blog... or a web site about your hypothetical... Open source "moho-like" application.

At least then... it is in a place where the discussion... is... relevant.

... More Software Porn:

"Oh boy! I really wish I could make Flash animations with Microsoft Word. If only they would make it open source someone else would definately add that feature."

p.s. I'm not annoyed... This isn't a rant or anything. This all just seems really really funny to me and I like to write funny things and hear myself talk.

-vern

[Guest]

your right vern, this is like software porn, Moho wont ever go Open Source and Synfig is confusing Fazek (considering it doesnt have a comprehensive manual to operate it with like Moho).

But on the bigger picture there are so many different animation programs out there that offer you one thing in animation and not the other.

If I were to implement a Moho type open source app. it would be a cross between ToonBoom, Moho and Mirage Studio with scripting from Lua. Now wouldn't that be something!

[Guest]

BTW Vern, everything is relevant, if it were irrelevant, it wouldn't have been replied to and deleted off the forum.

[larpon]

I would suggest that anyone who thinks we need a "Moho-like" open source program to create one of their own. With all of those free workers out there to make it better... should be pretty simple.

Remember that free workers is different from interested workers
Some are already on doing a moho-like app

Don't even make a program... post an... empty text file that doesn't do anything... and just include a bunch of use cases... let someone else do all the work.

Someone has to come up with the ideas.. if anyone find the idea interesting.. they'll pick it up

I kid... I'm just having some fun...

... but seriously. Why not bug Adobe to make Photoshop open source?

The Gimp isn't "open source Photoshop" but it's dang close... except for the convoluted interface.

We need a "MoGimpho".

Adobe is already doing alot for the open source community by opening some of their file formats, they've afaik even contributed code.. again they've got a different buisness model.. but now that they've bought Macromedia and Flash.. there's actually a hope somewhere that they'll some day open the format... they've been busy making the flashplayer 9 ready for linux anyway.. so they are not afraid of open source I would say... As for the GIMP? I say it's more intuitive, I don't like the look and feel of GTK but it's a damn fast and stable app.

I find open source applications in general have much WORSE gui's than paid software... only because I'm use to... standardized GUI's on the Mac. Win, Unix, Linux programs... they don't have guidelines for where things go. The GUI's are all over the place.

I always thought that was part of my "punishment" for using the "free stuff".



-vern

Hehe.. I really don't hope you see this in contrast to moho's GUI?
Because I think it's placed somewhere in my top 5 of ugly,clumsy,unintuitive and weird GUI's ever.. I even find Blender's UI more useful

On a side note on standards... Open source software are way closer to standards in general than it's largest closed source giants (Windows/Mac). I think of CSS/XML/ODF/SVG I can't count on two hands how much Mircosoft has tried to make standard, in the past and present, that could only run on their platform i.e. closed source... ISO and W3C must've pulled their hair a couple of times looking at how Microsoft incorporate their standards in their
product line.

You might think the GUI's are all over.. I don't know if you mean GUI's or window managers here?, but I don't find KDE and GNOME GUI's "all over"... anyway Don't see it as punishments but rather software that needs your involvement... If you don't like it write the maintainers.. have a chit chat with them on how you feel it a pain.. In other words contribute and innovate... Now this is what's lacking completly in commercial apps.

[heyvern]

This may seem weird... but I like the moho interface...

Well.. let me clarify... I don't find it annoying in any way. I can hit keys to get my tools... so... I never actually click on a button very often.

I can zoom with the mouse wheel... so I never need to click on the button...

I can pan with the right click on my mouse... so I never need to click the button.

They have... menus for stuff... so... I pull down a standard Mac menu and select an option.

I have half a dozen "new" tools created by users that really make the interface simple (dang! Forgot to post my list of favorite user tools!!!).

Most of the open source applications I've seen don't even have... menus at the top of the screen like other apps... they have... wierd ways of selecting things...

... don't get me started on the file browsing in open source apps.... Each one seems to be different... or I should say... different in the same way. I guess this is how the linux OS works or something.

I use a program called jEdit which is the best open source app I use everyday. I still get confused sometimes trying to find files to open. I have to... think different (forgive the pun).

That is what I call non standard interfaces. In the past Apple would not "certify" an application unless the menus fit their standards.

On windows, linux, unix... there was no standard. That is why in the beggining so many apps would have menus set up in anyway the programmers liked. Each application required you to "relearn" how to do basic stuff all over again.

These are the interface standards that I am thinking of. An open file menu that looks like all the open file menus of all the other applications on that OS.

Every open source app I have used has a different look and feel to these basic things.

Many times I hear, "the program is great! Once you get use to the wierd interface."

So... compared to THAT... YES! Moho/AS has a beautiful GUI.

Just my nickels worth on the subject.

-vern

[myles]

Well, some interesting conversation and viewpoints.

Not necessarily useful, mind you, but interesting.

As its relevance steadily declines I was going to start ignoring this thread, but I saw one comment I just had to reply to (further decreasing the relevance of this thread).

If you don't like it write the maintainers.. have a chit chat with them on how you feel it a pain.. In other words contribute and innovate... Now this is what's lacking completly in commercial apps.

Umm, larpon, that's called either "customer service" or "feedback" or even "feature requests", and most commercial apps have somewhere you can do it.
Actually, I see what you're saying, but I think it's often just implemented differently in a commercial context (although some open source apps also have feedback forms or forums rather than direct developer contact).

A considerable number of Anime Studio features, and some of the GUI features, have been a direct result of user feedback.

In some cases I was impressed by the GUI implementation of the original request, which while heartfelt often described a somewhat more complicated way of doing things than the final implementation.

Case in point: I can't recall in detail the original discussion on what eventually became switch layers, but I remember thinking "ooh, that will be so useful but a real pain to work with" until the implementation came out and was (surprise!) easy to work with - this was switch layers in general, not lipsynch in particular.

Bone binding is another example - originally you had to bind all points manually to individual bones, but based on user feedback Lost Marble first implemented automatic flexible binding, then made it the default, then later introduced region binding (now, if region binding could only become the default, I'd be even happier - hmm, must put that in the feature requests section of the forum ).

Regards, Myles.

[Rasheed]

I think that another thing that triggered this discussion is that Moho was shareware you could use for ever in demo mode. Now in Anime Studio Pro, there is a 30-day demo mode, after which it stops functioning (I guess, I haven't tried that). The price has gone up considerably, while the functionality is roughly the same as before. You could also argue that up till Moho 5.4 the price has been too low and now the price is more like similar products in the market.

About the being free, if something is open source, it doesn't necessarily means the product is free. That's up to the provider of the compiled source. There are instances of open source software that are not free and because it has been tuned and documented in a certain way and the price is reasonable, no-one cares to recompile the open source into a freebie. You pay a premium for documentation and user support. That is reasonable, because maintenance and support are the most expensive parts of any software project.

Anime Studio isn't closed source entirely. It has some open source properties, a programmable interface in Lua. Anyone can start a project on Sourceforge to create an open source Lua scripting editor for Anime Studio or Moho. However, I don't see that being discussed. IMHO this would make more sense than a reverse engineered open source version of Moho.

[Fazek]

The Lua interface version in Moho is old and highly restricted (the debug interface and many system call features are disabled). It is not a perspective to make big things in Lua for Moho. (I still waiting for the Linux version so I don't have AS yet). I think we already reached the limits of the development, probably the most complicated thing was 7feet's sound mixer. But if you see PapagayoMOD, you can see what is possible with the Python language. You can't do the same thing in Moho's Lua, because it is restricted.

So now I don't really care about the scriptwriting for AS. It is too hard to fight with the problems.

[idragosani]

The Lua interface version in Moho is old and highly restricted (the debug interface and many system call features are disabled). It is not a perspective to make big things in Lua for Moho. (I still waiting for the Linux version so I don't have AS yet). I think we already reached the limits of the development, probably the most complicated thing was 7feet's sound mixer. But if you see PapagayoMOD, you can see what is possible with the Python language. You can't do the same thing in Moho's Lua, because it is restricted.

So now I don't really care about the scriptwriting for AS. It is too hard to fight with the problems.

I think Python would be an excellent choice for scripting language. A 3D animation app I use called K-3D (similar to Maya) has built in Python and you can do some pretty fancy things with it.

[heyvern]

Is Python as easy to learn as LUA? Is it similar in any way?

My old crusty brain is hard to poke new knowledge in.

I've never actually... looked at Python before. I know some of the apps I use for 3D may use it in some way.

-vern