Lookout Flash!

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:38 am

MarkBorok wrote:... Moho, so far, does not contain any anime-specific features, whatever those might be, and users who expect to be making that type of animation with it will probably be disappointed...

..Uh... hmm...

How about... some of the stuff done by Sang820? Talk about anime...

I think it is what you do with the tool that makes it genre specific.

What exactly are Anime Specific Features™?

Really big eyes tool?
Custom eye brow layer?
Robot button?
Out of synch lip synch?
School girl uniform paint brush?
Overly complex plot generator?

I kid with you a bit.

-vern

Rhoel · Post by **Rhoel** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:24 am

CHIO wrote: 2. Look this "Anime Survey" at this link (e-frontier web page)
http://www.e-frontier.com/article/artic ... 1851/1/279

I am hoping that Fahim and eFrontier do not take the results of this poll too seriously, simply because the poll is wildly biased: Its based entirely on a preconceived assumption and lackes any alternatives or opt-outs - eg, "Which is your favourite name?: ". Well, none is the answer I wanted to give as all names are all poor. "How much amine do you make?: ", none, I make commercial animation, documentaries, HD timelapse and other stuff.

The fact people may love Amine Studio out of 5 very bad names is valueless. Okay, they find it an okay name for a new product ... do they want it for the replacement for an existing program? That is a totally different question and hasn't been addressed.

I ran the name change past some of our guys today - they raised eyebrows: Anime is a very specific type of animation, so its sounds like Anime Studio is specifically for anime and not for what they are doing (Simpsons-type of work). They pointed out Anime Studio is a place or thing, not software ... in asian languages, it's the recognised expression for an Japanese animation studio. Now that's just great for endless confusion in ESL countries (countries where English is not first language). 'Anime Studio did this" ... "Really, which one".

Worst, it was pointed out that the majority of the anime is amateur, fan based poor work. Therefore, the implication is the program is for amateurs and not professionals. Pity, because the Lost Marbles gallery has some very cool European animation on display - none of it Anime.

Since there has been no official launch of this product (other than a limited email to some customers), there is time to reconsider. I hope Fahim will take on board some of the concerns raised in this thread.

Better still, run a balanced poll on this site (with none of the above options), asking the direct question: Should Moho 6 be Moho Studio or Anime Studio.

Personally, having slept on this one, my mind 24 hours later is much stronger in support of Moho Studio for pro-studios and Moho Lite or Express (the preference is on Lite as this is explicitly a cut down version where as Express makes it sound fast).

Anime Studio just says "amateur" and will be a bitch to sell to the commercial houses.

Time to be fair and poll the existing users, those who have stood by the product for the past 5 years.

Rhoel

BTW 1: Mo ho in Thai (if said with an upward inflection on the Ho), means angry.

BTW 2: Those with websites might care to note that eFrontier has an Affiliate program. As a webmaster, that pleases me ... move over Adsense - screen real estate required.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:59 am

The animated version of the Boondocks cartoon is supposedly "Anime"... or at least that is what the artist wanted for it.

It is about two young African American boys who live with their grandfather in suburbia...

... uh... what genre is that exactly? Anime? What is Anime these days? Is it still even... Japanese anymore?

The term "Anime" has moved so far past its origins... it is almost like... "modern" or "surrealism"... there are so many levels of quality and style that are covered under this broad term called "Anime" that to put a product with the name "Anime" in it into a tiny box is just silly.

This is a tool for animators... pros and hobbyists. Both of these groups are going to be familar enough with the broad strokes of this style not to automatically avoid it because of some association with "Speed Racer" or "Pokemon".

Is Miyazaki Hayao... anime? If so... he sucks then right? Because that's anime?

What about some of the higher quality cartoon fair that has cropped up in the "American" market? It would fall into the anime genre... but... some are hard to classify specifically.

I think the term Anime is broad enough and descriptive enough that people interested in this type of tool will look at it when they hear about... and won't be shortsighted enough to ignore it just because of the name.

I couldn't imagine someone not even willing to look at a new thing because of the name. The name is just a name.

Good grief... Moho? Is that better than Anime? Or is it just more familar to us?

I am really surprised that "Anime Studio" was even available as a product name to be honest. I would have thought that someone would have snapped it up ages ago. It has a nice ring to it.

-Vern

Rhoel · Post by **Rhoel** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:43 am

heyvern wrote: The name is just a name.

Good grief... Moho? Is that better than Anime? Or is it just more familar to us?

Nissan once made a car called a "Cedric". An asean drinks company made a drink called "Sweat". Neither sold.

Is Moho or Anime better or is it just more famliar? You just answered your own question. It's more familliar, a product with a history. Changing product names mid-way through its life usually spells disaster - even Coke can mess that one up.

As Granny would say, it it ain't broke ....

For me, I have no intention of telling the Boss we are switching programs again ... he'll ask why we are not including the option of Toom Boom, etc. Maybe I am in a unique position but so far there are more negatives to the name change than positive. I'd like to see the time better spent getting the program studio friendly.

Rhoel

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:33 am

heyvern wrote:

What planet are you guys from?
Is it just me or is "Anime" like... I don't know... the hottest animation topic on the planet?

Well, I'm from planet Earth and into animation since 1977. For me, "anime" is just a fad, just a brand name dominating video outlets for a decade or so. I just know much more independent animation and animation history than an average anime interested kid nowadays to accept the concept "anime is just japanese for any kind of animation". It is not.

If I want to play devil's advocate, I could compare the renaming to "Anime Studio" with CAS' "Animo" claim of the 90's that it "will automate cel animation inbetweening". It did not, as we all know, and CAS had to add the usual scan-and-ink-and-paint functionality just to survive commercially.

Don't get me wrong, I wish Moho every commercial success (because I will profit from that as well). My concern is not so much about "truth in advertising", but to attract cut-out animators, experimental animators, film students, web animators all the same as anime fans to Moho which is quite a good tool for a whole range of styles.

If I really wanted to attract the anime buffs, I'd try and do a complete 3 minute Moho commercial in plain Anime style ... covering every aspect of common anime topics to show that it really is possible to create that in Moho. In that other thread over there (http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4561) Bones3D did a nice example what works easily and what is hard to achieve in Moho. A convincing head turn isn't impossible to do in Moho, it's just not possible to be done automatically - only frame-by-frame by hand.

Pete L · Post by **Pete L** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:15 am

I've been on this ride from the earliest of days. I've gained more than I've given from the forum and for that I'm sorry. I've learnt a lot by using MOHO and the forum has been superb with some great advice and additional scripts. Mike has always been there and the 'usual suspects' have made my working life a lot easier. We are an animation and effects company in Bristol, UK. Our output is predominantly 3D and FX but for what 2D work I can get into the system I've used this application. I also have some input into some of the excellent educational establishments here in Bristol and always recommend this application.

The exciting news about efrontier can only be a good thing and I'm eager to see what else will be achieved.

Regarding the name: As long as it is the application I've grown to know and love and progresses in the same vein and isn't called 'Steve' then I'm happy.

Pete L

Fazek · Post by **Fazek** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:25 pm

Rhoel wrote: BTW 1: Mo ho in Thai (if said with an upward inflection on the Ho), means angry.

Moho (with long 'o' at the end, and with 'h' like the first letter in 'hungry') means in Hungarian greedy.

Maybe Anime is one thing what is possible to make with Moho, but:

- it is not the best style for Moho's possibilities,
- Moho is not the best software to make Anime and Japanese studios are using other softwares. For example, Ghibli made the Mononoke movie with Toonz.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:42 pm

Rhoel wrote:For me, I have no intention of telling the Boss we are switching programs again ...

Huh! You aren't switching programs... If you sell it that way to your boss... well... good grief of course he will question it.

The same thing has happened bunches of times for me. I remember when Adobe Golive was... Cyberstudio... when Adobe bought it... I didn't "Change programs" or have to explain anything to my boss...

It was the same application with new better features.

How long will Freehand still be around? I bet those who have Freehand will gladly update to whatever the new hybrid Freehand/Illustrator application might be...

As for the name branding... Moho is familar with THOSE WHO OWN IT! The name is not... well known in a larger sense. New users wouldn't know what Moho was.

If you like Moho now... you would actually not update it because you don't like the new name? The name... changes it somehow?

You guys don't even know.. maybe there will be "Anime" features (see list above).

<sigh> oh well. This topic is done to death.

You guys can buy that new application called:

Generic Animation Pro CSMX™

-vern

Rhoel · Post by **Rhoel** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:01 pm

heyvern wrote:
Rhoel wrote:For me, I have no intention of telling the Boss we are switching programs again ...
Huh! You aren't switching programs... If you sell it that way to your boss... well... good grief of course he will question it.

He knows we use Moho, he tells the clients we use Moho, he tells the studio visitors we use Moho.

Suddenly we're not using Moho. We are using Anime Studio. Call it a new program (which is is) or a name change, The result is the same. Confusion: He will question it. It's messy and an unnecessary complication - that is my meaning.

The choice is up to Mike or eFrontier. They undoubtedly will listen to opinion and peoples thoughts then make the call.

My interest is where is this program going, what it will do, have the bugs been resolved, commercial stuff like will it now network and files be portable, etc.

At the end of the day, its a tool for making animation. The key thing is will it develop our work or limit it. If it does what it says on the tin (and then some more), it will be good for us, LM and eF.

Roll on the launch.

Rhoel

jordanek · Post by **jordanek** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:04 pm

I'm with Rhoel on this one. "Anime Studio" seems targeted to hobbyists, not professionals. All the animators in our studio are confused and wondering what Moho has to do with anime. I think there's a risk of losing a large chunk of the professional market with a limiting name like that.

Then again, perhaps it's the hobbyists that e-Frontier is after. It's seemed to work for them in the past.

t-burn · Post by **t-burn** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:40 pm

I work with Jordanek, and agree with him and Rhoel. Anime Studio just sounds like a hobbyist tool, that pigeon-holes it into being marketed to a limited genre for people that have never used it before.

Of course current users will still be using it because it is such an excellent tool, but show the name to a pro that has never heard of it before, and the name will immediately limit it to the anime genre in their eyes.

The name 'Anime' resonates more positively with those who watch cartoons, but has negative connotations when dealing with professionals that make the animation (even pros that like anime style will look at it as an amateur program).

Maya is an animation tool too (albeit a different type, but the point is the same). While the name Maya doesn't say anything about animation, 3D, effects, or anything like that... it has still aquired a broad and deep market penetration because the pros use it all the time. That is probably the better direction to take the name for the new Moho, but I guess E-Frontier has never been too concerned about marketing to professionals even though it is a professional quality tool.

To sum it up, the word Anime has too much baggage. If that baggage is what EF and LM are wanting, I wish you guys the best.

I love the program anyway.

Sequent · Post by **Sequent** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:39 pm

I think "Maya" is an excellent name for an animation/sfx program that deals with creating "illusions." So, in the case of Maya, the name was probably more carefully selected than you may think - especially if you're not familiar with Indian mythology.

BA · Post by BA » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:47 pm

ahh, who cares about the name? I would still love moho just the same if it was called ShitPile...

what i'm much more curious is how the program will change - what new features will be added, and what will the real differences be between the pro version and the lite version... also, when will it come out?

also, very important - will the user-developed scripts still work with the new moho? Will it be so different that those of us who are doing major projects with moho now are forced to continue using the old version in order to maintain our customized methodologies?

I'm working on a prototype for a large-scale Moho project right now, and it would suck to find out once we're done that we have to start over in order to use the latest version...

anyway, hopefully it's all good news, and hopefully Mike will soothe all the speculation happening here with some tantalizing tidbits of things to come. Hear that, Lost Marble? Please give us some hints of what to expect other than a new name!!!

GoChris1 · Post by **GoChris1** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:48 pm

If you look at e-frontier's site, you'll see that they target amatuer artists more than professionals. Their most expensive product is less than 300 dollars, so I don't think they are worried about selling to commecial animation houses.

The fact that you can be a pro and rely on their products for your business needs speaks well for the company.

I think it will probably be a long while before Moho/Anime studio is upgraded with more "professional" features. Once they get the product out there, they'll see how their customers like it. And especially what kind of customer they have for it. If it turns out that their customers are amatuers who want to make Anime, they'll upgrade it for that. If they want to do professional work, they'll take that into account. And probably raise the price for the "Studio" version.

I think the jury is still out on this one... but it's exciting that the rest of the world will finally get a chance to be introduced to Moho. Too many times I've done the evangelizing for it, only to have someone say they don't want to use it... because it's not Flash. And they really only want to use Flash because everyone else is using it!

It's like Linux may be better, but most everyone is still going to use buggy Windows... until everyone starts using Linux. Remember BeOs? That was supposed to be better too...

So e-frontier's marketing muscle will really help change the perception that Flash is the only way to go.

It's gonna be cool.

GoChris

Toontoonz · Post by **Toontoonz** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:17 pm

Looks like the suits at eFrontier did a job on LM.
I can imagine the meeting with LM and the eFrontier suits:

"Moho??? That sounds like some pimp in da´ ghetto talking about his prostitutes as in `I need Mo Hos´".

LM tries to explain; no one listens.

"And besides, LM, we got this program called "Manga Studio" and to make your little project fit in with our portfolio of products its got to be along the same vein sooooooooo we are going to rename it "Anime Studio".

---------
The "Anime Studio" name reminds me of the Simpsons Cartoon Studio or didn´t Disney have one too where they give all the characters and people move them around and make their toy cartoons. A toy for kids.

And do a search on Google - I think you will find in Japan there is already a software called "AnimeStudio".

The "Anime Studio" pigeon-holes the software, stereotypes it as a hobbyiest tool for schoolkids wanting to make "Anime". It is not a name that pros would think to use.
"Uh - what software do you use?"
"Anime Studio."
"No seriously, what animation software do you use?" giggle, giggle.

There is nothing "Anime" about Moho. (Is there anything Anime about any animation software?)
And the ironic thing basically no one ever posting here at these forums ever did Anime cartooning - (yeah, heyvern, I know the guy Sang820 posted a couple of snippets but it was not much and nobody else posted any Anime-type stuff. And,heyvern, it was first called GoLive Cyberstudio, then Adobe bought it and eventually changed the name to Adobe GoLive. There was continuity in the name change. Was wondering, do you happen to work for LM or eFrontier or have some connection?)

Nah, this was a decision made by the suits of eFrontier to get it to balance out their "Manga Studio" line. Soon from eFrontier: "Make a Manga and an Anime - Get Manga/Anime Studio!!!"

With the name "AnimeStudio" does it mean that one can only make Anime with it now?
A person looking for a animation program (who is not interested in Anime) and sees "Anime Studio" on the shelf they will probably be turned off and not buy it because they do not want to make "Anime".

After 7 years LM definitely needed to do something different; it appears that LM was getting in over its head as a 1 man shop. Is this the right way? It was probably the only alternative available.
I look forward to seeing this new and improved Moho (which is a cool name). All the tutorial characters will now be Anime-type....Pokeman where are you?

Lookout Flash!

Things can only get better