What it is with Moho...

General Moho topics.

Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger

User avatar
Manu
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:11 pm
Contact:

What it is with Moho...

Post by Manu »

You know, I've introduced quite a few people over time to Moho. But I have to say, it's been only with very limited success. Hence my question: What is it with Moho?

You know, you show them the bones, the particles, the 3D camera. All that for roughly 60 pounds sterling. And peoples jaws drop. And then nothing.

Could it be that the whole of Moho is less than the sum of the parts? Are those individual tools lost in an eccentric workflow? Or is it the lack of control many parts of Moho still suffer from?

I've used it for so long now, I've forgotten what it was like the first time around when I played with it. I seem to remember quite a bit of frustration, there was no instant satisfaction.

Any thoughts?
User avatar
Nolan Scott
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:14 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Nolan Scott »

Well, doing animation “in any software”
does involve lots of work, dedication and hours of concentration….
There is no “instant” success…. Even in this “instant” society….
But if you are willing to learn and use the possibilities of the software
the personal rewards are sometimes beyond imagination….
Seeing your characters coming alive and doing well is just the greatest pleasure of all.

Cheers
Nolan
User avatar
heyvern
Posts: 7035
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:49 am

Post by heyvern »

Have you ever seen the animated film "Madagascar"?

The scene where the penguins finally get to Antarctica... they have dreamed about what this would be like...

... one penguin finally turns and says "Well... this sucks!"

Reality is not always as wonderful as the dream or the marketing. I have had the same situation with many programs. Some people think they want to do "X" and they see what I do with a program and get so excited... but then the reality sinks in and they lose interest very quickly. They are surprised and shocked that it requires skill and hard work.

The dream to create has to be more powerful than the tools used to attain that dream. Finding a tool to bring the dream closer is exciting. If the dream is only as powerful as how easy it is to do... then... some people will always want more and be dissapointed.

I get sleepy and tired when I see how animation was done before the computer. I don't know if I could have maintained the desire to animate in the days of drawing every single frame by hand.

But I suppose if I had been an animator during that time... if that was the only way to do it... and I wanted it bad enough... who knows?

-vern
User avatar
Manu
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:11 pm
Contact:

Post by Manu »

Okay, maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been :) My point is that a lot of people I know here in the London animation community have played around with Flash, and quite successfully so. They're all full-time animation people, so they're already past the "oh, I didn't know animation was a lot of work"-attitude.
In fact, Flash is regarded as the cheap, quick-fix, low quality solution to low-budget projects. So Flash has found itself a place in the industry.
But Moho? Moho always seems to be this dark horse. That's where my question: "what is it with Moho" comes in.
And yes Vern, I'm one of those crazy people who started of with the pencil and paper :D and I'm not desperate to return to it.
User avatar
DK
Posts: 2849
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:06 am
Location: Australia

Post by DK »

What attracted me to moho originally was that it was so easy to use. Previous to Moho I was a frustrated 3D Lightwaver having to wait for my ideas to render at 20 mins per frame...then i discovered Moho and it really changed my life. The tutorial library was brilliant and it had me up and running in a day. I certainly have noticed that some people while, impressed with Moho at first, don't stick with it as a production tool. Funny, I spoke to a guy the other day and he said that he wanted an animation tool for a project, something easy to use....i showed him Moho and he tried it. After a few days i rang him and asked how he went with Moho...his reply was...Oh....you have to be able to DRAW to use Moho....???? I said ...mate you have to be able to DRAW to animate!!!Sheeesh...Who knows!!!
Personally...i don't think people know how powerfull Moho really is, but hey that's their problem :)

D.K
User avatar
jahnocli
Posts: 3471
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: UK

Post by jahnocli »

It's an interesting question. I can draw pretty well -- here is something I did yesterday:
busters
...but I just *cannot* get used to drawing in Moho. I've tried a lot over the years, and it just makes me feel uncomfortable. So I draw in Xara Xtreme, import it into Moho as an Illustrator file, then spend a LOT of time getting it to look like I wanted it to look in the first place! That's one reason -- maybe the major reason? -- I suspect a lot of people "abandon" Moho.

The second reason would be the interface and "modus operandi". It's just so quirky...after a while you can get used to it, but I see it as an obstacle, not a guide. If you can get past these things, there's a wonderland awaiting you, but if you are not determined then you are never going to find them. My two pennies...

J
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?
User avatar
Rhoel
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:09 am
Location: Phnom Penh, Cambodia
Contact:

Post by Rhoel »

One of the reasons commercial studios don't like it is the lack of layer loading and saving - Flash does this well in for for of libraries. It's possible to build a set of eyes or mouths then re-suse them whenever you need them. Moho has yet to impliment them.

There is also a fundimental problem in matting/masking - the source mask has to be in the same layer it's matting: If you really think about this, it's wrong - a character layer is walks left to right across screen, walking behind a table. The mask will be on the background layer, matting the table. Moho needs the mask to be in the Character layer, which is panning. Worse, there is a big bug where its possible to have a masked layer working in the work screen yet fail on the render'output. That one is very frustrating - there is the working example

Hopefully, the new arrangement with more programmers will resove these problems quicker.

It's a good program and hopefully it will take off big time once 5.5 or 6 comes along. But layers export/import (reuse) and logical matting has to work if its going to be commercially viable - I used to have 8 Animo operators working and that phrase "logical"is there for a reason. :lol:

Rhoel
User avatar
Rai López
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:41 pm
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: What it is with Moho...

Post by Rai López »

Manu wrote:Could it be that the whole of Moho is less than the sum of the parts?
Hmmm... If that means that I think :roll: , I always have thought that is exactly what it is with Moho... I mean, a lot of incredible/funtastic tools but a lot of incompatibilities between them too... Well, I hope Moho go in the way to avoid'm soon (I HOPE! :))
User avatar
heyvern
Posts: 7035
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:49 am

Post by heyvern »

Manu?

have you asked any of these people you introduced to Moho why they don't use it?

Might be a way to get the real answer.

---------

As to the person who mentioned "reusing libraries"...

I have a folder for my current project that contains...

Hands
Eyes
Mouths
etc...

Most of my characters have similar features. I just import those rigged/lip synched/ whatever... layers and away I go. I tweak them as needed to match the situation.

It would be nice to have "linked" libraries... but we don't yet... so... I can't possibly wait till then... I just work around it till it shows up in a future update.

-------------

As for masking... I have not found one single complex masking problem I haven't been able to make work.

I had a tough one recently... a real sticky one.

I had one character who pours a bucket of paint on the head of another character.

The style is a simple "toon" look... solid fills with black outlines... so I needed to have red paint with the black out line along the edge pour and drip over him with the "unpainted" version still showing below the paint line.

This is not as easy as it sounds. I had to use an "extra" group layer outside of the main masked group layer to complete the masking effect.

If I eliminated the stroke on the edge of the paint... it would have been a piece of cake and done with just one group layer... but I was determined to make it exactly the way I wanted.

I will admit masking in Moho may take some thinking outside the box on occassion... and I really look foward to improvements... but for now I don't have that much trouble. Nothing has been impossible to achieve.

As long as I end up with exactly what I need... I can't complain... too much. ;)

It would be nice if the real time display matched the render though.

-vern
len
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:26 pm

Post by len »

You guys seem very advanced with Moho compared to myself.
I'm just tackling it for my second major (2d) animation project.
I see some amazing tools but have found several things to be very non-intuitive and more challenging than other drawing/animation tools.
I'm also the kind of guy that will dig deep down into a problem until I'm sure I have it solved. I'll run lots of tests to make sure the package is using the logic I think it is and adjust my working logic to match. I'm pretty experienced with Flash and many 3d apps.

Here are a few of my personal "big discoveries" from my learning journey so far:
1. Strokes and Fills Live Independently
The drawing system uses a separate 'understructure' layer that I'm not used to. For example, in Illustrator you create strokes and fills. The curves have attributes that are assigned that create the stroke thickness and color. In Moho these are two separate objects. The underlying curves exist independently of the strokes and fills. In fact, strokes and fills can be deleted with curves still existing. Additionally you can accidentally create hundreds of overlapping strokes and fills that all live on top of one curve. This was one of the first things to cause me problems that was profound to finally understand.

2. Anchor points don't actually anchor the drawing.
It is a very weird experience to add a point along a curve and have your drawing change significantly in a far distant location. This is especially true at the initial stages of a drawing in which there are a limited number of points added. I think other (Adobe) tools that we're all used to have a much more localized effect when changes are made of this sort (and I'm sure it relates to the math underlying the curve description). The only similar experience I've ever had is with Nurbs curves and for digital artists, who are used to precision, this can be very non-intuitive. I'm still getting used to it and wonder if I'll ever be comfortable drawing with Moho.

3. Isolated Keyframe Channels
In Flash each keyframe controls everything that's going on in the stage. In Moho keyframes have been separated into functional channels for more control. This is a good thing but can create lots of hidden data that you have to search for. For example, I have several times now gotten a visibility keyframe added automatically when I'm not at frame 0 and create a new layer. This can be pretty apparent because of the red coloring in the timeline but it is a similar problem for other channels. It's just not obvious in a lot of cases, where your keyframes are and what they're doing. Flash, for example, has a much more exposed timeline, it seems, though more limited in its flexibility. I think Moho needs to develop its 'keyframe transparency' some to attract novice users. I have also had some issues feeling like I'm visualizing the correct graphs for what I think is animated. I'm still working through this one.

In any case, I am sticking with Moho because it just seems so damn cool and has tools that I haven't seen anywhere else.

I am going to continue compiling my notes as I learn it, especially since I plan to be training my own animators once the time comes!
User avatar
heyvern
Posts: 7035
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:49 am

Post by heyvern »

Some of the "odd things" with Moho... I actually call features.
;)

The fact that the individual point line "width" isn't part of the "shape" or style info but part of the vector point info is a good thing!

I often delete and recreate shapes... maybe several times during the creative process. I love the fact that the point width I defined stays with the vector path and is in no way associated with shape styles.

I would be really bummed out if I had to redo all those subtle line width tweaks everytime I had to delete and recreate a shape... I would be in a padded cell with a wrap around sports coat by now.
;)

--------
Multiple shapes on one "curve"... I love this and use it a lot.

At first... I made that same mistake... I had a bazillion shapes and strokes all on top of each other... took an age to figure out what I was doing wrong... once I got it... not a problem.

Adobe Illustrator has the EXACT same feature by the way... just implemented in a different way. You can apply multiple strokes and fills to the same shape. Once I made the connection of that feature in AI with Moho I was able to understand it a little better.

-vern
User avatar
Manu
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:11 pm
Contact:

Post by Manu »

Well, I've never had clear explanations as to why Moho is such a dark horse.
I can see why you wouldn't want to use it in hard-core production, but as a hobby-after-hours tool it should be the ideal choice. Lots of animators want something simple to do their own stuff in their free time.
My gut feeling is that Moho lacks a certain clear, central "theme" to the workflow. Something that gets you going in those first moments after you downloaded the demo. Most demos I've downloaded over the years have been deleted within 30 minutes, and that is almost always due to a "muddled logic"
A few typical examples of muddled logic in Moho:
- Rigging and compositing happen in the same interface: the layer palette. The more I think about it, the more I realise they should be completely separate.
- You can have multiple fills on one vector. Great. So where is the interface to deal with those many fills?
- Masking...

Mmm, looks like I'm in the process of answering my own question here :D
len
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:26 pm

Post by len »

Another negative thing that struck me off the bat about Moho, and I hate to say this considering how great the tool is: the example characters and logos and even the "Lost Marble" logo are really not so hot. I'm not a professional cartoonist or logo designer but they just don't feel "tight".
Moho could probably hook people better if they were revamped.
Of course, I kind of like the mystique of very few people really getting how powerful a tool it is.
User avatar
heyvern
Posts: 7035
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:49 am

Post by heyvern »

Manu wrote:A few typical examples of muddled logic in Moho:
- Rigging and compositing happen in the same interface: the layer palette. The more I think about it, the more I realise they should be completely separate.
Huh?

I don't understand that one. What do you mean "Rigging and compositing"? The bone rigging is done... on the... bone layer... when you select a bone. Everything is on a layer. Styles are on the styles palette... I'm confused.
Manu wrote:- You can have multiple fills on one vector. Great. So where is the interface to deal with those many fills?
Well... I think maybe at some point I must have downloaded a script for shape management. This allows me to select and order shapes. Works a treat. I also set up moho to AUTO NAME shapes and bones. I always have a way to select and order them.

Currently... there isn't a shape layer palette just like Adobe. I don't think that LM is even aware of this lack in Moho. Maybe a feature request might help. ;)
- Masking...
Well... as I have already said... masking is a tricky concept anyway. It takes some experience and experimentation to understand it in any application.

The Photoshop that I use (v7) doesn't even have as sophisticated layer masking as Moho!!! You can't put a layer set inside another layer set and use complex masking. The layer set mask overrides the individual layer masking as well. You can't "combine" them interactively.

-vern
User avatar
Manu
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:11 pm
Contact:

Post by Manu »

len wrote:the example characters and logos and even the "Lost Marble" logo are really not so hot...
Oops, I thought about that one, but was a bit too embarrassed to mention it. I've got a suspicion Mike himself is responsible for the artwork.
I saw the splash-screen for FutureFlash (Flash before it was bought up by Macromedia) the other day. It looked decidedly amateurish. Once Macromedia got involved, the whole look of Flash became much more "pro" , add in Macromedia's marketing muscle, and we all can see what the result is. Will the same happen for Moho in the new agreement? Who knows.
Post Reply