I have to agree with rylleman here
Mike is the one that set the price of moho not us.
If he desides to jack the price up now, he'll be upsetting alot of people that use moho.
Because of the low cost it allows hobbiest to afford a way to express themselves through animation which is one of the many reasons we love Mike for his hard work.
I for one couldn't afford a software package that was something like $500. Being a father of 3 I'm sure some of you can understand what I mean. Most of my computer software consists of great alternatives to those expensive programs.
MoHo is the only exception due to the price tag and the respect I have for Mike for putting that price tag on moho, and for the outstanding support he has given to everyone here.
Being a new father isn't easy, believe me I know. There's more than just the baby to care for, there's also helping the wife with her needs and to support her. post-pardom depression is NOT a myth it's very real, not all women show it the same nor does every woman get it, but you still have to be there for them. Family support is the strongest support you can get if you can get it.
Everyone should respect him and support him the way he has respected and supported us. In all due respect, he deserves that.
Much love goes out to you and your family Mike.
Postality Knights.
Will there be more updates to Moho?
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Quite frankly... if the price does go up (I can't see how it couldn't with a "boxed" version in stores... that costs a lot of money) it is just part of the biz.
I have been pushing my friends to buy Moho now while it's cheap though!
I am just glad it will be around for the long haul. I just hope all the custom tools I have keep working.
-Vern
I have been pushing my friends to buy Moho now while it's cheap though!
I am just glad it will be around for the long haul. I just hope all the custom tools I have keep working.
-Vern
LM has always been very fair to its users and I am sure this won't change after such a long time.
The most obvious solution to the dilemma of pleasing commercial users with big demands and deep pockets versus hobbyists who can't afford much is to make different versions. For example, a lite version could be limited in output resolution; in the professional version you could have the ability to share rendering across a network - and so on. There are plenty of things that professional studios need that hobbyists don't.
Even an expensive program like Photoshop has a very cheap version that has more than enough features for non-professional users.
Jeff
The most obvious solution to the dilemma of pleasing commercial users with big demands and deep pockets versus hobbyists who can't afford much is to make different versions. For example, a lite version could be limited in output resolution; in the professional version you could have the ability to share rendering across a network - and so on. There are plenty of things that professional studios need that hobbyists don't.
Even an expensive program like Photoshop has a very cheap version that has more than enough features for non-professional users.
Jeff
For Moho I'm not sure that would be the right direction to go. I tend to like one product fits all needs.jeff wrote: Even an expensive program like Photoshop has a very cheap version that has more than enough features for non-professional users.
Jeff
But true, in all other similar products, we often see three versions of the same deal. And more often we see the cheapest version limited to just being a demo. I just don't eat that kind of marketing anymore.
I rather like a different license then. If you use the program in a studio with many animators working on the same animation, then you pay for a studio license, that makes it cheaper for the studio than buying 10 normal copies.
I want moho to grow among everyone who likes it, not to be another exclusive product for a few.
best regards
I understand what you're saying, Vanleth, but I think you're quite wrong. As I indicated, there are features which professional users need and hobbyists don't. Just one example: if you want to produce some animation at very high resolution for use in cinemas, then I can see no good reason why you shouldn't pay for the privilege. I don't see why LM should bear the cost. The post production company that will have to transfer your footage certainly won't be doing it for $99!
If you don't like the idea of different versions of a program, then maybe you'll buy into the idea of modules. Things like professional support, production flow software and network rendering etc. could all be offered as additional modules.
We'll see what the future holds for Moho, but based on what has happened until now, I feel confident most of us will be happy bunnies.
Best,
Jeff
If you don't like the idea of different versions of a program, then maybe you'll buy into the idea of modules. Things like professional support, production flow software and network rendering etc. could all be offered as additional modules.
We'll see what the future holds for Moho, but based on what has happened until now, I feel confident most of us will be happy bunnies.
Best,
Jeff
Well... I' chimin' in again...
I disagree with low priced high priced "versions".
Someone else is deciding which features I need if I'm "poor".
For instance... high res output... good argument but...
What if you need to output high resolution for some other reason? Print maybe? Moho is a powerful drawing tool. An artist on a low budget could use Moho to do all kinds of graphics besides animation and occassionally may need to out put at high res. This is just an example of course... but still you see what can happen.
If there are multiple versions... then LM has to MAINTAIN and SUPPORT multiple versions of the application. This adds additional effort and cost to the application support.
What about scripting capabilities? If I create a custom layer script... will I have to know which "version" it works for?
I ran into this type of annoyance with After Effects. I had the lower cost version... it seemed like every single thing I tried to do wasn't available. The price difference was considerable.
I think that no matter what happens to Moho... a reasonable price that benefits both LM and its users can be found.
-Vern
I disagree with low priced high priced "versions".
Someone else is deciding which features I need if I'm "poor".
For instance... high res output... good argument but...
What if you need to output high resolution for some other reason? Print maybe? Moho is a powerful drawing tool. An artist on a low budget could use Moho to do all kinds of graphics besides animation and occassionally may need to out put at high res. This is just an example of course... but still you see what can happen.
If there are multiple versions... then LM has to MAINTAIN and SUPPORT multiple versions of the application. This adds additional effort and cost to the application support.
What about scripting capabilities? If I create a custom layer script... will I have to know which "version" it works for?
I ran into this type of annoyance with After Effects. I had the lower cost version... it seemed like every single thing I tried to do wasn't available. The price difference was considerable.
I think that no matter what happens to Moho... a reasonable price that benefits both LM and its users can be found.
-Vern
Vern - I am not convinced. Your example is poor. If a newer version of Moho didn't allow print resloution output without extra cost, I say so be it and if I felt I needed that option, I'd pay for it. (It is an animation program, after all, so you'd be better off using a drawing program anyway.)
I suspect your attitude about what goes in which version would be different if you were a programmer who had spent years developing a product and made next to nothing from it.
It can only be good news for everyone that Moho is going to be more widely known and used and I am looking forward with interest to its evolution (or intelligent design if you prefer).
Jeff
I suspect your attitude about what goes in which version would be different if you were a programmer who had spent years developing a product and made next to nothing from it.
It can only be good news for everyone that Moho is going to be more widely known and used and I am looking forward with interest to its evolution (or intelligent design if you prefer).
Jeff
Right now, MoHo is $100. Consider the fact that it's been a good low cost graphics and animation tool for hobbiest and the like for a LONG time.
The fact of the matter is, a company CAN jack the prices up, but without good reason there's no logic behind it.
MoHo is a fantastic program we all know it that's why we're here. BUT unless it becomes something EXTREMELY enhanced further than it is, it just doesn't validate a price tag change.
like someone said already, Mike set the price tag which means he was happy with $100 for the program.
MoHo is affordable. The problem with those other programs that are so highly priced is people begin copying, cracking, and distributing them.
So sure, make moho $200, but if it is only bringing in 1/2 the people it did when it was $100 then it's not really benefitial is it?
My business philosophy is make money on the quantity of sales, don't try and get rich off 1 sale. Since moho is teamed with marketers now, there's no reason why they shouldn't get the sales.
The fact of the matter is, a company CAN jack the prices up, but without good reason there's no logic behind it.
MoHo is a fantastic program we all know it that's why we're here. BUT unless it becomes something EXTREMELY enhanced further than it is, it just doesn't validate a price tag change.
like someone said already, Mike set the price tag which means he was happy with $100 for the program.
MoHo is affordable. The problem with those other programs that are so highly priced is people begin copying, cracking, and distributing them.
So sure, make moho $200, but if it is only bringing in 1/2 the people it did when it was $100 then it's not really benefitial is it?
My business philosophy is make money on the quantity of sales, don't try and get rich off 1 sale. Since moho is teamed with marketers now, there's no reason why they shouldn't get the sales.
Anime Studio - Ultimate Game Graphics
OK, I'll just briefly reiterate my main point since some folk here seem determined to misunderstand it: there are features that studios (and some professionals) need which hobbyists don't. The studios can well afford to pay for those features. I would hope that hobbyists who don't need those features should continue to be able to buy the core software at the same low price as now and still with a free demo version. Just like many other programs out there.
Jeff
Jeff
My POV about Moho goes like this:
Moho is unique in its combination of tools. I'd like it to stay that way because I am quite happy about its abilities right now, and I can integrate Moho into my workflow comfortably.
Moho is not, and shouldn't attempt to become:
- a replacement for Flash
- a single-solution animation program to produce complete films
- an editing program
- a sound editing program
- a pixel-based animation program which deals with scans
- a 3D-program
Moho is quite perfect for:
- cutout animation
- skeleton-based character animation
- automated lipsync
- easy-to-do camera moves and complex compositing
This list is of course incomplete, it just contains my favourites. For these 4 tasks I don't have a better program at hand right now. If that means that I have to juggle intermediate Quicktime files between programs, I do it, because on the long run I save time and brain.
My suggestion for Moho's further development would be: concentrate on what Moho is already good at. Don't throw away any functionality. Think of Moho as a very powerful module in a bigger production pipeline. There are already good interaction options, I'd suggest to develop this further.
Why not add more modules to Moho? I could think of a "Moho scan and linetest and X-sheet module" - imagine the image sequence import script developed into the userfriendly X-sheet and timing module I haven't found so far (it's not necessary to actually add scanning abilities - but for a powerful, animation-oriented scanner driver I would kill
).
It would be possible to market them as separate units: the pixel-oriented moho, and the vector-oriented moho (as it is right now). Of course they need to interact: and that's where I see Moho's biggest potential. An open file format like the one Papagayo uses should be used whereever possible. The scripting ability is priceless - in the hands of the right people (unfortunately not me ...).
Just thinking in marketing terms, I'd say: not many people want to pay for just another all-in-one (at least that's the claim) "animation program" (been there, paid a lot - and still it can't do properly what I expect from software which claims to be "animation software"). But lots of folks will pay the reasonably low price (as it is right now) for the additional helpful tool Moho can be right now.
Moho is unique in its combination of tools. I'd like it to stay that way because I am quite happy about its abilities right now, and I can integrate Moho into my workflow comfortably.
Moho is not, and shouldn't attempt to become:
- a replacement for Flash
- a single-solution animation program to produce complete films
- an editing program
- a sound editing program
- a pixel-based animation program which deals with scans
- a 3D-program
Moho is quite perfect for:
- cutout animation
- skeleton-based character animation
- automated lipsync
- easy-to-do camera moves and complex compositing
This list is of course incomplete, it just contains my favourites. For these 4 tasks I don't have a better program at hand right now. If that means that I have to juggle intermediate Quicktime files between programs, I do it, because on the long run I save time and brain.
My suggestion for Moho's further development would be: concentrate on what Moho is already good at. Don't throw away any functionality. Think of Moho as a very powerful module in a bigger production pipeline. There are already good interaction options, I'd suggest to develop this further.
Why not add more modules to Moho? I could think of a "Moho scan and linetest and X-sheet module" - imagine the image sequence import script developed into the userfriendly X-sheet and timing module I haven't found so far (it's not necessary to actually add scanning abilities - but for a powerful, animation-oriented scanner driver I would kill
).It would be possible to market them as separate units: the pixel-oriented moho, and the vector-oriented moho (as it is right now). Of course they need to interact: and that's where I see Moho's biggest potential. An open file format like the one Papagayo uses should be used whereever possible. The scripting ability is priceless - in the hands of the right people (unfortunately not me ...).
Just thinking in marketing terms, I'd say: not many people want to pay for just another all-in-one (at least that's the claim) "animation program" (been there, paid a lot - and still it can't do properly what I expect from software which claims to be "animation software"). But lots of folks will pay the reasonably low price (as it is right now) for the additional helpful tool Moho can be right now.
Jeff,
I can see what you... think... you mean... but... uh...
A "studio"? Can you "define" that please? 3 people? 6? 10?
How much money does a "studio" make? $100,000,000 yearly? $100,000? $6000? $300?
Why would a "one man show" not need the same features as a "studio"?
I am a "one man show". I am not a studio. I have very low overhead. Limited resources. I don't "do animation" as my primary source of income. When I do do that I need the same "features" as a "studio".
So... a "hobby" version... who decides who is a "hobbyist" and who is a "professional"? Money? Because I don't pull in thousands and thousands of dollars for my animation work I have to use a limited version?
Might as well not have a price listed at all and have one of those "click here for a quote" links.
A fair price, for everyone... the same features for everyone... and we all have the potential to become a "professional studio". Which means more stuff out there done with Moho.
I also don't know which features I could "do without".
Uh... bone constraints? Pen support? AI import? Flash export? Maybe... uh... no time line for us poor hobby slobs? $50 for a timeline... $20 for some bone constraints.
What about sharing files? If someone has the "pro" version... and someone has the "cheapy" version... they can't work together?
I have used Hash's Animation Master for a looooong time. The owner will never produce "two versions". The same application with the same features for studios and hobbyists for the same price.
They have been around for ages. All the other 3D companies are slowing dying off and merging... EXACTLY as Martin Hash predicted (they call him Nostradamus now. His predictions are "in print" on their forum)...
Hash continues to grow and gain new customers... with only one version, one price. They have been around longer than any other 3D software company. I actually think they were the first (1985?). Still here while others dissapear... new ones start up... get sold... go away... new name... etc.
All of that success based on people like me... poor artists who want pro tools for a fair price.
LM, I don't mind if you raise the price... not too much... just don't start forcing us to decide if we are just "lowly hobbyists" or "professionals".
-Vern
I can see what you... think... you mean... but... uh...
A "studio"? Can you "define" that please? 3 people? 6? 10?
How much money does a "studio" make? $100,000,000 yearly? $100,000? $6000? $300?
Why would a "one man show" not need the same features as a "studio"?
I am a "one man show". I am not a studio. I have very low overhead. Limited resources. I don't "do animation" as my primary source of income. When I do do that I need the same "features" as a "studio".
So... a "hobby" version... who decides who is a "hobbyist" and who is a "professional"? Money? Because I don't pull in thousands and thousands of dollars for my animation work I have to use a limited version?
Might as well not have a price listed at all and have one of those "click here for a quote" links.
A fair price, for everyone... the same features for everyone... and we all have the potential to become a "professional studio". Which means more stuff out there done with Moho.
I also don't know which features I could "do without".
Uh... bone constraints? Pen support? AI import? Flash export? Maybe... uh... no time line for us poor hobby slobs? $50 for a timeline... $20 for some bone constraints.
What about sharing files? If someone has the "pro" version... and someone has the "cheapy" version... they can't work together?
I have used Hash's Animation Master for a looooong time. The owner will never produce "two versions". The same application with the same features for studios and hobbyists for the same price.
They have been around for ages. All the other 3D companies are slowing dying off and merging... EXACTLY as Martin Hash predicted (they call him Nostradamus now. His predictions are "in print" on their forum)...
Hash continues to grow and gain new customers... with only one version, one price. They have been around longer than any other 3D software company. I actually think they were the first (1985?). Still here while others dissapear... new ones start up... get sold... go away... new name... etc.
All of that success based on people like me... poor artists who want pro tools for a fair price.
LM, I don't mind if you raise the price... not too much... just don't start forcing us to decide if we are just "lowly hobbyists" or "professionals".
-Vern
-
jackthegiantkiller
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:58 pm
Missing the point...
The simple reason why this program needs to cost more is so new development CAN occur, right now the man can barely keep up with expenses and therefore Moho is put on the backburner. The new features being requested will help put Moho in a position where it can run comfortably in a professional studio, with multiple artists sharing resources and easily moving/copying keyframes/bones/characters around. Right now it can accomplish a great deal, but watch what happens when you try to integrate it into a large workflow, say you want to swap out the head of a character with another...if you have 8 animators each working on that figure for different scenes, they will all have to independently make the changes. A painfully time consuming task, money flying right out the window. But this is the kind of "extremely enhanced" version professionals need - therefore the price upgrade would be most validated.
So why in the heck not have a "lite" version and a "pro" version. All these people whining about how it wouldn't be fair because they can only afford the "lite" version will just have to deal, that's life, that's change. If you're happy with the way the program is now, then don't upgrade. I really don't see how else this program can grow if everyone demands that it become better and better, yet refuse to pay for the time and effort it takes?!?! People are going to be more upset if Moho languishes than if the price bumps, believe me.
So, if you're a hobbiest - use what you have now or some future "lite" version with bug fixes, minor enhancements, etc. What's the difference? If you're using Moho in a studio, get the "pro" version (or modules) because the studio can afford it. I'm not some rich guy, by far, so I might not afford a "pro" version for home. Does that suddenly make me a "lowly hobbyist"? No. By using the "pro" version at work, does that make me a "professional" by day and a "hobbyist" by night? No, it simply means a different toolset for different situations. I don't see why LM would intentionally strip down Moho for "lite" users, when what we are asking for are "pro" additions! We're not asking LM to remove functionality for hobbyists, we're asking him to ADD pro features for large studio work.
This program has so much potential, and it's sad to think it might not achieve more because people refuse to pay for innovation. For instance, Moho is going to be used for some minor character work in an upcoming VH1 animation at the studio I work at. I'm the one guy they go to for Moho work that fulfills a very small niche. But believe me, these Moho projects are few and far between. Were Moho taken to the next level, this program would be a staple in every animator's toolset, and LM could finally profit off the years of love and labor he put into this fine product.
So why in the heck not have a "lite" version and a "pro" version. All these people whining about how it wouldn't be fair because they can only afford the "lite" version will just have to deal, that's life, that's change. If you're happy with the way the program is now, then don't upgrade. I really don't see how else this program can grow if everyone demands that it become better and better, yet refuse to pay for the time and effort it takes?!?! People are going to be more upset if Moho languishes than if the price bumps, believe me.
So, if you're a hobbiest - use what you have now or some future "lite" version with bug fixes, minor enhancements, etc. What's the difference? If you're using Moho in a studio, get the "pro" version (or modules) because the studio can afford it. I'm not some rich guy, by far, so I might not afford a "pro" version for home. Does that suddenly make me a "lowly hobbyist"? No. By using the "pro" version at work, does that make me a "professional" by day and a "hobbyist" by night? No, it simply means a different toolset for different situations. I don't see why LM would intentionally strip down Moho for "lite" users, when what we are asking for are "pro" additions! We're not asking LM to remove functionality for hobbyists, we're asking him to ADD pro features for large studio work.
This program has so much potential, and it's sad to think it might not achieve more because people refuse to pay for innovation. For instance, Moho is going to be used for some minor character work in an upcoming VH1 animation at the studio I work at. I'm the one guy they go to for Moho work that fulfills a very small niche. But believe me, these Moho projects are few and far between. Were Moho taken to the next level, this program would be a staple in every animator's toolset, and LM could finally profit off the years of love and labor he put into this fine product.
Well I'm just tinkering with Moho, but maybe a good option would be to leave the Moho core features and simply add an interface to allow module development in something like C or VB while leaving the scripting engine? Conitec's 3D Game Studio does this with both scripting and C++ programming interfaces (VB and other language support upcoming) . Lots of user created scripts for non-programmers, an easy interface for novice programmers and low level access for studios and 3rd party commercial module development.
[url=http://burtabreu.animationblogspot.com:2gityfdw]My AnimationBlogSpot[/url:2gityfdw]
Meh, Moho doesn't need 2+ versions. It's fine just the way it is.
like someone said already, more versions = more support required which = more $$$ needed which = we ALL pay more money.
besides, how much do you think if ANYTHING moho's going to jump in price?
Everyone is jumping to conclusions yet Mike has said NOTHING about a cost change.
All we can do is wait and see, no matter what anyone says anyway, Mike and whoever else is developing it now will be the ones that say this is how it's going to be.
Everyone just needs to relax and see what the moho future brings.
like someone said already, more versions = more support required which = more $$$ needed which = we ALL pay more money.
besides, how much do you think if ANYTHING moho's going to jump in price?
Everyone is jumping to conclusions yet Mike has said NOTHING about a cost change.
All we can do is wait and see, no matter what anyone says anyway, Mike and whoever else is developing it now will be the ones that say this is how it's going to be.
Everyone just needs to relax and see what the moho future brings.
Anime Studio - Ultimate Game Graphics