I'm jumping into a large scale animation project with a few people, and we're trying to narrow down to the most efficient program for the style of animation that we'll be doing.
Essentially, the project will use exclusively scanned, hand-drawn, black & white pencil art. The "animation" will consist only of moving layers and images fading in and out at different areas of the screen. No actual morphing or tweening of images. I need only the built-in ability for camera movements, basic movement and transformation of each layer, fading in and out of layers, and depth blur. (and preferably good scene management as this is a very large project).
So, with that said, I hate Flash. It's clunky and I don't like watching films on 1/4 of my computer screen. This animation project will be exported as multiple file types, the primary being .mov at a bare minimum resolution of 800x600. It's meant to be a true movie-like experience with a neat storyboard type feel.
I've tried toonboom, which was pretty efficient for the moving/scaling/panning type of stuff, but didn't really have any tools built in for things like depth blur and other basic effects. (I know it's possible, but I don't have the time to create each effect by hand, I need decent automation)
I've been busting my brain on Synfig (new open source) for a few days now, which seems like a great GPL option, but as of yet I can't even get it running on Windows.
Blender is another option, though 3D in nature, since locking the perspective could create the same 2D effect. Problem is that I've jumped into Blender from time to time and it scares the hell out of me. Like I said before, too many options for a very VERY simple animation project. I don't even want to think how long it would take me to learn Blender just enough to figure out the small number of things I need to know.
So, now I've come to Moho. I just downloaded the demo but I haven't jumped in yet. Before I spend too much time with it, is it a good option? I know that every program I've listed could eventually produce the desired effect I'm looking for, but which would be most efficient (that's the key word) for these few basic tools that I need? (mentioned above)
Also, as a bonus, a built in sound editor for synchronization would be the icing on the cake.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
which program would be best suited...
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
As you say, Moho can do basic stuff like this fairly easily, and also very efficiently (of course, I'm probably biased in favour of Moho).
Depth blur in Moho can be set up quickly in the project settings (depth-of-field - enable it, specify at what distance things come into focus, and how far before they start blurring again, and how much maximum blur).
Then it's a simple matter of moving the camera - Moho has very efficient camera tools. Use the Track Camera tool, hold down Alt (or Mac equivalent) to restrict movement to the Z (in-out) dimension, then just drag the mouse up or down. Drag without the Alt key to get X and Y camera tracking - movement up-down left-right while remaining parallel to the image plane.
You can type numbers in the numerical input boxes above the workspace to exactly duplicate a particular camera position (if you don't simply copy-and-paste camera keyframes in the timeline). You can also hold your mouse over any of the numerical boxes and use the scroll-wheel to adjust numbers.
You can also tilt and pan the camera in 3D. The orbit workspace tool enables you to look at the camera and layers from different angles like walking around a multiplane camera while you work.
Opacity fading - choose your image layer, choose a frame in the timeline, select the layer properties, and type an opacity value into the Opacity property box.
Once you have 0% and 100% opacity keyframes on the timeline (note: you can also use the keyframe on frame 0, Moho's setup frame), you can also copy-and-paste and drag around opacity keyframes very easily if you have multiple fades for the same image.
Layer movement/scaling is of course as easy and efficient as moving a camera.
Select a layer in the Layers window, select a frame in the timeline, select the tool, click-and-drag.
No need to duplicate frames, no need to tell the program you want tweening - Moho is designed with object animation in mind.
Select object/layer, select frame that it happens, select action/tool, do it. (Or if you prefer, select frame, select object/layer, select action/tool, do it.)
I think Lost Marble has made a conscious decision to concentrate on animation rather than audio features, so Moho doesn't have a built-in sound editor, but if you load the soundtrack for that particular piece of animation it shows a blocky preview of the waveform in the timeline (behind your keyframes) allowing you to synch keyframes to sound, assuming you will create your soundtrack in a separate audio program rather than Moho.
If they are not in the soundtrack already and you want to synch sound to existing animation, Moho assumes you will instead add/synch special effect sounds, foley, and background music in your video editor rather than in Moho itself.
The Blender interface and learning curve scares me too.
Regards, Myles.
Depth blur in Moho can be set up quickly in the project settings (depth-of-field - enable it, specify at what distance things come into focus, and how far before they start blurring again, and how much maximum blur).
Then it's a simple matter of moving the camera - Moho has very efficient camera tools. Use the Track Camera tool, hold down Alt (or Mac equivalent) to restrict movement to the Z (in-out) dimension, then just drag the mouse up or down. Drag without the Alt key to get X and Y camera tracking - movement up-down left-right while remaining parallel to the image plane.
You can type numbers in the numerical input boxes above the workspace to exactly duplicate a particular camera position (if you don't simply copy-and-paste camera keyframes in the timeline). You can also hold your mouse over any of the numerical boxes and use the scroll-wheel to adjust numbers.
You can also tilt and pan the camera in 3D. The orbit workspace tool enables you to look at the camera and layers from different angles like walking around a multiplane camera while you work.
Opacity fading - choose your image layer, choose a frame in the timeline, select the layer properties, and type an opacity value into the Opacity property box.
Once you have 0% and 100% opacity keyframes on the timeline (note: you can also use the keyframe on frame 0, Moho's setup frame), you can also copy-and-paste and drag around opacity keyframes very easily if you have multiple fades for the same image.
Layer movement/scaling is of course as easy and efficient as moving a camera.
Select a layer in the Layers window, select a frame in the timeline, select the tool, click-and-drag.
No need to duplicate frames, no need to tell the program you want tweening - Moho is designed with object animation in mind.
Select object/layer, select frame that it happens, select action/tool, do it. (Or if you prefer, select frame, select object/layer, select action/tool, do it.)
I think Lost Marble has made a conscious decision to concentrate on animation rather than audio features, so Moho doesn't have a built-in sound editor, but if you load the soundtrack for that particular piece of animation it shows a blocky preview of the waveform in the timeline (behind your keyframes) allowing you to synch keyframes to sound, assuming you will create your soundtrack in a separate audio program rather than Moho.
If they are not in the soundtrack already and you want to synch sound to existing animation, Moho assumes you will instead add/synch special effect sounds, foley, and background music in your video editor rather than in Moho itself.
The Blender interface and learning curve scares me too.
Regards, Myles.
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted."
-- Groucho Marx
-- Groucho Marx
thanks a lot myles. I've been messing around with the demo for the past couple of hours and I must say, I'm thoroughly impressed. It's amazing how easy and intuitive moho is. I was immediately able to start moving layers around and keyframing (a much easier process than toonboom) and it seems like it'll be perfect for this project. Especially at just $100.
With the depth of field, I'm not wanting to use it to merely create an "always on" depth blur, instead I want to be able to do the film trick where you either focus on the foreground or the background, and then switch the focus to the opposite. I'm guessing that's the opacity trick you were talking about? Not quite sure.
Anyways, Moho will work just great. I'm sure I'll be in these forums a bunch once we start the project.
Thanks
With the depth of field, I'm not wanting to use it to merely create an "always on" depth blur, instead I want to be able to do the film trick where you either focus on the foreground or the background, and then switch the focus to the opposite. I'm guessing that's the opacity trick you were talking about? Not quite sure.
Anyways, Moho will work just great. I'm sure I'll be in these forums a bunch once we start the project.
Thanks
I don't think Moho allows you to play with camera depth-of-field settings during an animation.
The easiest way would probably be to just keyframe layer blur for the 2 layers. Select a frame, double-click on a layer in the layer window, type in the blur radius.
You can also create and move blur keyframes on the timeline - this probably works best in graph mode on the timeline.
Just doing some quick testing in a small render size, Moho's layer blur (and blur in other software) seems to be integer(pixel-radius) based, so it will seem to jump in steps if you have a lot more frames between blur keyframes than the change in pixel radius number.
This will possibly only be significant in small render sizes and slow blur animation. Workarounds would be possible but less efficient.
If you just move the camera forward/back to use the existing static depth-of-field, the sizes of the objects change - sometimes useful for changing from looking at one character's face to looking at the second character behind their shoulder, but you end up with just the shoulder and side of the face of the first character, whereas it sounds like you just want to change the focus. Scaling the layer to counteract this somewhat negates the efficiency you were looking for.
You could move the camera and change the camera zoom setting at the same time, but you get that Hitchcock/madness/realisation/internal-epiphany zoom effect.
Regards, Myles.
The easiest way would probably be to just keyframe layer blur for the 2 layers. Select a frame, double-click on a layer in the layer window, type in the blur radius.
You can also create and move blur keyframes on the timeline - this probably works best in graph mode on the timeline.
Just doing some quick testing in a small render size, Moho's layer blur (and blur in other software) seems to be integer(pixel-radius) based, so it will seem to jump in steps if you have a lot more frames between blur keyframes than the change in pixel radius number.
This will possibly only be significant in small render sizes and slow blur animation. Workarounds would be possible but less efficient.
If you just move the camera forward/back to use the existing static depth-of-field, the sizes of the objects change - sometimes useful for changing from looking at one character's face to looking at the second character behind their shoulder, but you end up with just the shoulder and side of the face of the first character, whereas it sounds like you just want to change the focus. Scaling the layer to counteract this somewhat negates the efficiency you were looking for.
You could move the camera and change the camera zoom setting at the same time, but you get that Hitchcock/madness/realisation/internal-epiphany zoom effect.
Regards, Myles.
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted."
-- Groucho Marx
-- Groucho Marx
doppel: I suggest you take a look at Mirage (http://www.bauhaussoftware.com) which is marketed as "animation program" although it's just a tuned video paint program. Anyway, it can do some of the tasks quite good:
- import image sequences
- paint those images quite fast
- play back these images
- do the kind of crossfades you want
- do any kind of blur effect on layers.
OTOH it completely sucks in doing multi-level-panning in a user-friendly way. It is possible, but you have to wrap your brain around some wicked programmer's idea of doing it.
Have a look at the demo, it runs for 30 days. Mirage costs about 500$.
I have ordered a copy since I deal with scanned images a lot, and the coloring alone is a real time-saver for me (I used to color in Photoshop and import the images to Director to make Quicktimes!). However, I will do my pans in Moho - with pre-rendered Quicktimes out of other sources like Mirage.
You can do the compositing part of your project (including pans and blurs) in After FX nicely, but it's costly as well. If you can grab a second-hand copy of version 5.5, it will be good enough.
- import image sequences
- paint those images quite fast
- play back these images
- do the kind of crossfades you want
- do any kind of blur effect on layers.
OTOH it completely sucks in doing multi-level-panning in a user-friendly way. It is possible, but you have to wrap your brain around some wicked programmer's idea of doing it.
Have a look at the demo, it runs for 30 days. Mirage costs about 500$.
I have ordered a copy since I deal with scanned images a lot, and the coloring alone is a real time-saver for me (I used to color in Photoshop and import the images to Director to make Quicktimes!). However, I will do my pans in Moho - with pre-rendered Quicktimes out of other sources like Mirage.
You can do the compositing part of your project (including pans and blurs) in After FX nicely, but it's costly as well. If you can grab a second-hand copy of version 5.5, it will be good enough.
thanks, slowtiger, but I think I'm pretty happy with moho thus far (and $500 is a bit steep for this). I don't actually need to do any painting at all, the finished product will be black & white.
I don't think I'll be able to use after effects, because I want to pan and zoom with depth, so as far as I know I'll have to do all that within moho.
Here's another question for you guys though: When working on a scene that's several minutes long, and probably including over 100 high res drawings, are all the images sitting there at all times? But just set with an opacity of 0% while they're not being viewed? It just worries me a bit that it would really start to bog down by this method. Is it typical to maybe cut it up into small chunks, exporting them separately, and sticking them together with a video editor?
Sorry for such newb questions, I just hate reinventing my own wheel because I'm ignorant and too shy to ask.
I don't think I'll be able to use after effects, because I want to pan and zoom with depth, so as far as I know I'll have to do all that within moho.
Here's another question for you guys though: When working on a scene that's several minutes long, and probably including over 100 high res drawings, are all the images sitting there at all times? But just set with an opacity of 0% while they're not being viewed? It just worries me a bit that it would really start to bog down by this method. Is it typical to maybe cut it up into small chunks, exporting them separately, and sticking them together with a video editor?
Sorry for such newb questions, I just hate reinventing my own wheel because I'm ignorant and too shy to ask.
I haven't been working with MOHO that long. But I've found that it's not really a great product if your workflow primarily relies on scanned in drawing. I've been using ToonBoom for that kind of work and going out to MOHO or After Effects if some special effect is necessary. (Although, lately I've been leaving After Effects behind and using MOHO more.) I got ToonBoom for the academic price of $199. I think regular price is $399.
http://www.toonboom.com
http://www.toonboom.com
doppel,
Multi-shot stitching is certainly a common way of working with Moho - although I suspect in many animations camera shots change frequently, and each shot can be created in its .moho file, rendered separately, and the results stitched together in a video editor.
On the question of "high res", I've heard it's often a good idea to resize/resample images to about the maximum size in which they will appear on-screen before animating, in any software, to save resources. Higher resolution than that would seem to put a strain on the system without producing better results.
You might want to also toggle layer visibility off when the layer opacity reaches 0 and will stay that way for a while, which may save resources, although only Lost Marble could verify that for sure. You can toggle visibility through the layer properties, but it's easier just to click on the visibility (eye icon) channel in the timeline, which toggles on/off layer vsisibility according to its current state.
Just a random thought:
If you're not using bone, point, or switch animation, would a competent video editor itself be sufficient for your purpose? I suspect blur (to fake depth-of-field), opacity, and layer movement/scaling should be within the capabilities of most decent video editors. However, such programs are likely be more expensive than Moho, and the interface may well be less efficient for this type of animation.
mdmodeler,
I've been thinking of playing with some image-based characters myself - I'd be interested in hearing further what aspects of Moho you've found to be a problem when working with scanned images, particularly as some forum members have apparently been drawn to Moho because of its image handling - although, unlike doppel, mostly for jointed characters composed of smaller image pieces.
Regards, Myles.
Multi-shot stitching is certainly a common way of working with Moho - although I suspect in many animations camera shots change frequently, and each shot can be created in its .moho file, rendered separately, and the results stitched together in a video editor.
On the question of "high res", I've heard it's often a good idea to resize/resample images to about the maximum size in which they will appear on-screen before animating, in any software, to save resources. Higher resolution than that would seem to put a strain on the system without producing better results.
You might want to also toggle layer visibility off when the layer opacity reaches 0 and will stay that way for a while, which may save resources, although only Lost Marble could verify that for sure. You can toggle visibility through the layer properties, but it's easier just to click on the visibility (eye icon) channel in the timeline, which toggles on/off layer vsisibility according to its current state.
Just a random thought:
If you're not using bone, point, or switch animation, would a competent video editor itself be sufficient for your purpose? I suspect blur (to fake depth-of-field), opacity, and layer movement/scaling should be within the capabilities of most decent video editors. However, such programs are likely be more expensive than Moho, and the interface may well be less efficient for this type of animation.
mdmodeler,
I've been thinking of playing with some image-based characters myself - I'd be interested in hearing further what aspects of Moho you've found to be a problem when working with scanned images, particularly as some forum members have apparently been drawn to Moho because of its image handling - although, unlike doppel, mostly for jointed characters composed of smaller image pieces.
Regards, Myles.
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted."
-- Groucho Marx
-- Groucho Marx
myles,
My initial thought was to use a video editor, and I tried out the entire gamut of them, but moho is definitely both cheaper and more efficient. I'm thinking I might try about 30 seconds of animation per .moho file, which will probably include around 5-10 separate shots, each consisting of 1-4 layers.
With the layer visibility, is that just to clear up the workspace so you can see the project better (instead of having tons of layers floating around in the way)? Is that a simple on/off toggle that effects that layer for the entire project? Or does it apply to a particular frame, so that the layer will appear in the workspace only when you are in a frame in which it should be visible? Sorry, that sounded confusing.
My initial thought was to use a video editor, and I tried out the entire gamut of them, but moho is definitely both cheaper and more efficient. I'm thinking I might try about 30 seconds of animation per .moho file, which will probably include around 5-10 separate shots, each consisting of 1-4 layers.
With the layer visibility, is that just to clear up the workspace so you can see the project better (instead of having tons of layers floating around in the way)? Is that a simple on/off toggle that effects that layer for the entire project? Or does it apply to a particular frame, so that the layer will appear in the workspace only when you are in a frame in which it should be visible? Sorry, that sounded confusing.
With Moho, you get both.doppel wrote:With the layer visibility, is that just to clear up the workspace so you can see the project better (instead of having tons of layers floating around in the way)? Is that a simple on/off toggle that effects that layer for the entire project? Or does it apply to a particular frame, so that the layer will appear in the workspace only when you are in a frame in which it should be visible? Sorry, that sounded confusing.
The little pair of eyes beside each layer in the Layers window are just to clean up the workspace, and are a toggle that works wherever you are in the project, for the whole project - they affect both the workspace and rendering for the entire timeline.
However, the visibility channel in the timeline (or the Visibility layer property, same thing), with a single eye icon, is a keyframe setting toggle. It's like immediate 0%/100% opacity, but when layer visibility is keyframed off I suspect the layer is bypassed for some processing, so it might save resources - that's why I suggested you keyframe visibility off when opacity is 0%.
That's only my suspicion - Lost Marble is the only one who can tell you for sure, although if you are using Windows you could probably load up the Task Manager and keep an eye on the Performance tab and see if processing and memory use goes down when layer visibility is off for several images - Mac and Linux probably have something equivalent.
Regards, Myles.
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted."
-- Groucho Marx
-- Groucho Marx
Sorry to take so long to reply. Like I said, I'm very new to Moho but I've seen others on this forum say that Moho isn't well suited for animating sequential scanned in images. Toonboom does make it pretty easy to change the sequencing and timing of scanned in images. I just noticed that there are Moho (LUA) scripts to shift the keys for switch layers which I didn't know about when I made the statement above doppel.myles wrote:mdmodeler,
I've been thinking of playing with some image-based characters myself - I'd be interested in hearing further what aspects of Moho you've found to be a problem when working with scanned images, particularly as some forum members have apparently been drawn to Moho because of its image handling - although, unlike doppel, mostly for jointed characters composed of smaller image pieces.
Regards, Myles.
There are a number of different layer types in Moho. One type is the "switch" layer. This needs a number of sub-layers to work; only one of these sub-layers can be visible at any time. This technique is often used for lip synching -- put a different mouth drawing on each of half a dozen sub-layers inside a switch layer, then just switch between them to match the phonemes. This is a simple way of using them -- there are more sophisticated ways once you get to know the software better.
Lua scripts allow users of a programming disposition to have access to aspects of Moho, often for special effects or particle presets. Moho comes supplied with a few scripts -- try 'em out!
Lua scripts allow users of a programming disposition to have access to aspects of Moho, often for special effects or particle presets. Moho comes supplied with a few scripts -- try 'em out!
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?