I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

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Ira7
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I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by Ira7 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:46 am

Hey, guys. About two and a half years ago, I joined here and posted about how serious I was about learning 2-D animation. Life and beers got in the way, but now I'm REALLY serious. I just turned 62, and I start collecting SS in February.

Which explains how depressed I am, and motivated, at the same time.

I have Anime Pro 8, and the "style" I want to learn for now is simple black outline illustration work, no fills and colors, nothing fancy shmancy. Think of the old Piel's Brothers commercials (beer).

Anime 8 can do this for me now, right? Or do I have to upgrade?

I know I can dowmload a demo of the latest MoJo Pro, but I'm freaking broke these days.
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by slowtiger » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:43 am

Don't tell the others, but I still do nearly all of my work in v8. I take advantage of another computer on which I render stuff with v11, but that's it.

The Piel brothers! Great example. Of course the others will tell you that without Smart bones it's impossible, but I'm not sure about that. Basically you'll have a black outline and a white fill. With clever rigging you can reduce the amount of point animation to a minimum, but it will not work without that.

Keep us updated, I'm very curious about your results!
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by Greenlaw » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:40 pm

I'm not familiar with the Piel Bros commercials, but I will say that upgrading should depend on how much you need the new features that have been added in the 8 years since that version came out.

Frankly, there's been a lot of improvements since 8. A few significant developments have been (in no particular order):

- Smart Bone Action (a 'set driven key' system)
- Target Bones
- Constraints
- Sketch Bones (great for tails, hair, rope, etc.)
- Frame By Frame layer
- Smart Mesh
- Layer Comps
- Improved GUI

I use Moho 12 for animation in personal projects and in TV productions at my workplace, and I can't imagine going back even to ASP 11. That's just my personal opinion of course. :)

But if you're uncertain, try creating animations with ASP 8 and see if this is still something you want to pursue. At its core, the ASP 8 workflow is generally the same as it is nowadays: Plot and style vectors, bind points/shapes/layers to bones, then animate your character. (What you get with the latest Moho is more control over how well this system works.)

If you prefer working with a bitmap image workflow (as opposed to vector art,) then you will probably want to upgrade: Moho 12 offers custom mesh creation which can work a lot better than the automated mesh creation system in previous versions.

(At work, we use both. For example, the Moho rigs/animation I created for King Julien, Puss In Boots, and The Croods used bitmap images or hybrid bitmap/vector layers, but Boss Baby almost entirely used vector artwork drawn directly in Moho.)

Hope this helps.
Last edited by Greenlaw on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by slowtiger » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:23 pm

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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by Greenlaw » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:05 am

@Slowtiger: Oh, yeah! I have seen that before. Thanks for the reminder. :)

@OP: Apart from being B&W, the 'Piel Bros' style isn't too different from what we did for Boss Baby, and IMO, this style is easier to animate in Moho 12 because of Smart Bone Actions (as noted by Slowtiger.) Smart Bone Actions allow you to build specific 'hand-drawn' morphs and animations into your rig that are driven by bone rotations. These bones can be inside the rig or operated as 'dials' outside of character's skeleton.

As you might imagine, however, it is more complicated to rig a character with Smart Bone Actions. For example, the rigs I made for Boss Baby typically had a hundred or more Smart Bone Actions built-in for each major character, and there still was a lot of custom keyframing done in many scenes. (I think it was worth it though. We had a small team for these segments but the animation got done quickly and I think it looked pretty good.)

On the other hand, I agree with Slowtiger that it's possible to do this style in ASP 8. But it will require more custom keyframing of shapes and more reliance on Regular Actions and Morph Actions because you won't be able to automate that stuff like you can with Smart Bone Actions.

Good luck! I'll look forward to seeing what you create.
Last edited by Greenlaw on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ira7
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by Ira7 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:09 am

Thanks, guys.

I downloaded the new trial version last night (Happy New Year!), and I'm gonna work with it like a nut for the next month just to use the tutorial/manual. (I don't recall that 8 Pro even had one, but I didn't check last night.) I have a background in graphics, but I'm basically starting at ground zero for animation.

Big disadvantage with trial version is inability to import files, and I'm a "tracer" who needs to bring in other files from PS, and also trace in Mojo. No big deal for now, I guess, because I can still learn Mojo's drawing tools and animation features. Plus, I can switch off to 8 now and then to compare workflow features.

I didn't realize that when you launch the trial version, you have the option of launching it in either Debut or Pro. I don't anticipate being able to afford Pro in 30 days, but since I have 8 Pro, does it make sense for me launch in Pro? Or does Debut make more sense for the simple animations I described?

All of my work will literally be line for now.

Thanks for your help and support.

--Ira
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by Greenlaw » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:51 am

Hi Ira,
Ira7 wrote:Big disadvantage with trial version is inability to import files, and I'm a "tracer" who needs to bring in other files from PS, and also trace in Mojo. No big deal for now, I guess, because I can still learn Mojo's drawing tools and animation features. Plus, I can switch off to 8 now and then to compare workflow features.
Using the trial should give you a good sense of what's possible in Moho. But are you sure you're running in trial mode? I believe all the features are supposed to work until the 30 days limit expires.

Just a thought: make sure the image format you're trying to import is compatible.

If you're running the Debut version, PNG is a good format for tracing. Debut cannot import PSD.

If you're running Pro, you can import PSD as a single layer or multiple layers...however, I still recommend PNG for tracing and most other uses for reasons I've explained why elsewhere in these forums.
I didn't realize that when you launch the trial version, you have the option of launching it in either Debut or Pro. I don't anticipate being able to afford Pro in 30 days, but since I have 8 Pro, does it make sense for me launch in Pro? Or does Debut make more sense for the simple animations I described?
Unfortunately, Debut lacks most of the advanced features I mentioned earlier. FWIW, I've been developing Debut lessons aimed at very young animators and there have been quite a few technical 'roadblocks' along that way. That said, I think I have a good workflow shaping up for Debut that's easy to learn and produces nice results. I'll post more info about this in the near future. (I'm also working on an 'advanced' series for Moho Pro users but that's a whole other project and a ways off yet.)

Until the trial expires, you should be able to switch between Debut and Pro from the Preferences window. (When you have the Pro version, you can switch versions anytime. When you have the Debut version, you can't switch to Pro.)
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by slowtiger » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:24 am

Some general advice: Just go and train your animation skills. Don't worry about versions, because as a beginner you definitely must master the basic tools in Moho first. If you seriously start your project, you will need lots of time to get the designs right, get the story straight and interesting, do a storyboard (on paper) and so on. Opportunities will show up on the way.
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by hayasidist » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:19 pm

Ira7 wrote: … the "style" I want to learn for now is simple black outline illustration work, no fills and colors, nothing fancy shmancy. ...
along those lines, you might like to try pencilmation for style ideas too..

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Ira7
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by Ira7 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:18 am

Thanks to the new posters for your guidance!
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by uncle808us » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:01 pm

Ira7 wrote:Hey, guys. About two and a half years ago, I joined here and posted about how serious I was about learning 2-D animation. Life and beers got in the way, but now I'm REALLY serious. I just turned 62, and I start collecting SS in February.

Which explains how depressed I am, and motivated, at the same time.

I have Anime Pro 8, and the "style" I want to learn for now is simple black outline illustration work, no fills and colors, nothing fancy shmancy. Think of the old Piel's Brothers commercials (beer).

Anime 8 can do this for me now, right? Or do I have to upgrade?
You know Open Toonz is free and has a mesh deformer (the Plastic tool) which I use and it does everything AnimeStudio 11 does for me. I use them both.
I personally can not afford the hight price for the newer MOHO. It has some nice features though. Have fun!
I know I can dowmload a demo of the latest MoJo Pro, but I'm freaking broke these days.
I use a MacBook Pro, and Anime Studio Pro 11.2
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Re: I'm back again. Is 8 Pro enough for now?

Post by Gnaws » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:15 am

Ira7 wrote:I have Anime Pro 8, and the "style" I want to learn for now is simple black outline illustration work, no fills and colors, nothing fancy shmancy. Think of the old Piel's Brothers commercials (beer).

Anime 8 can do this for me now, right? Or do I have to upgrade?

I know I can dowmload a demo of the latest MoJo Pro, but I'm freaking broke these days.
Hey Ira - ASP 8 is plenty robust enough. An earlier version of my demo reel is mostly ver 8. Coming from a Flash background; having bones and animated vertices changed my life.

You have both of these.

Go kill it! =]
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