bezier curve option

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bezier curve option

Postby Gnaws » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:16 pm

I love everything abut Moho 12 EXCEPT the new bezier handles. Is there any way to use the old point method instead?
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Greenlaw » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:50 pm

Sometimes I feel that way too. For deforming vectors, I definitely prefer the normal points--I may need to use more points but they're more predictable for animation. I mainly use bezier points only for non-deforming artwork.

Anyway, to get the 'classic' behavior, you should disable the Show Bezier Handles button below:

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What this does is it hides the handles so you don't accidentally change the curves. Basically, if you don't change the handles, you're still working with 'old style' Moho points. You can still change the curvature the normal way without touching the bezier handles.

If you do happen to convert a point to bezier, you can change it back by clicking Peak or Curve.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Greenlaw » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:57 pm

What might throw you off is when you switch to the Curvature tool, then the handles become visible again. (IMO, this should be optional.)

Just be sure to click and drag only on the middle point (not a handle) and you'll be working in 'classic' mode.

Note to developers: I wish the tangent points and the handle points looked different. Sometimes it's very difficult to tell them apart. If the tangent points could be bolder, that would help...sometimes these points are very hard to see anyway, especially against darker colors.

Of course, if we had the option to hide the handles while using the Curvature tool, then we wouldn't worry about clicking on them by accident. The Show Bezier Handles toggle button really should be visible for this tool too.

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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Gnaws » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:16 am

I mainly use bezier points only for non-deforming artwork.


That would be my preference, too. I find those beziers REALLY difficult to control while animating.

Thanks for the feedback, Greenlaw
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Lost Marble » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:08 pm

Gnaws wrote:
I mainly use bezier points only for non-deforming artwork.


That would be my preference, too. I find those beziers REALLY difficult to control while animating.

Thanks for the feedback, Greenlaw


The funny thing is, I had been telling people for like 17 years that bezier handles would be a pain for animation, but it was a constant request from users. Finally, we added them, but I guess it's a preference thing for people.

If you have a current version of Adobe Illustrator, check out the Curvature Pen Tool. I guess they decided that sometimes people don't want to use bezier handles.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Greenlaw » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:16 pm

Hey Mike. Good to see you here.

To be clear, I like having them when I need them. Bezier handles are faster and more accurate to draw with, so I do use them. But, as mentioned, I mainly use them for non-deforming elements in a character.

For example, if I have multiple vector drawings in a Switch layer that I'm layer binding to the character (like maybe a mouth switch,) then I'll create the drawings using beziers. I find beziers make it easier to create many variations because I may edit significantly fewer points to get very complex shapes.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Lost Marble » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:21 pm

No, I'm not saying the handles are bad. I'm not exactly sure what I'm saying...that the world is complicated, I guess. Sometimes you want something, only to learn that it's kind of a pain, or not always as great as you had hoped it would be.

Just struck me as funny somehow that I had been hearing requests for this feature for years and years, and now that it's here some people's first reaction is how do I get rid of this. I do like having the handles sometimes, but I definitely understand why they're not always suitable for animation.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby chucky » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:35 am

Those Beziers are great, but a bit fussy.
I think it probably would be best off as default and more obvious when they are on, like they are 'special' .
I get confused about how to use the old method more consistently, and I often want to 'protect' curves from going Bezier but the do so accidentally.... ending up with spinning handles and all that. Beziers get upset when they are sharp and get compounded in smart actions in particular, they seem to multiply their angles and freak out.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Manu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:45 am

The only people responding in this thread will be the ones not liking it. A bit of a self selected crowd. So I'd better chime in to let you know I really like the new option. You can make shapes with far fewer points. The old system often created shapes that had ugly bumps in them forcing you to add more and more points to get it to look smooth. Before, imported files from Illustrator would deform badly. Thanks to the new option, artwork can be imported and exported at much higher fidelity, making Moho a much better option to use in our pipeline.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby dkwroot » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:00 pm

Lost Marble wrote:Just struck me as funny somehow that I had been hearing requests for this feature for years and years, and now that it's here some people's first reaction is how do I get rid of this.


Yeah, but that's true of just about any new feature. Personally, I like the bezier handles as they allow me to build and modify characters a lot more efficiently.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby chucky » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:12 pm

Manu wrote:The only people responding in this thread will be the ones not liking it. A bit of a self selected crowd. So I'd better chime in to let you know I really like the new option. You can make shapes with far fewer points. The old system often created shapes that had ugly bumps in them forcing you to add more and more points to get it to look smooth. Before, imported files from Illustrator would deform badly. Thanks to the new option, artwork can be imported and exported at much higher fidelity, making Moho a much better option to use in our pipeline.

Don't get wrong Manu, I'm lov'n me those beziers, I'm sure Lost marble knows exactly what we're all talkin about here. Yes they are just great at making those perfect shapes with minimal points. There are enough occasions when they can be so tricky to control in animation ( as Mike had warned) that their disadvantages make a substantial impact.
Still, I love me some beziers, yeas I do.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Gnaws » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:01 pm

Manu wrote:Before, imported files from Illustrator would deform badly.


Not in my experience. The only problem I had with imported AI files was with the extra pts Moho would add. But after deleting them, the program always worked beautifully. In fact, I never drew directly in ASP/Moho. I always counted on (and probably still will) using imported AI files.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Víctor Paredes » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:24 pm

I know my opinion is not too valid here, since I was part of the version 12 development team and highly supported the inclusion of this feature, but I really love the bezier handles. As user, they have simplified my tracing and rigging process a lot.
One of the things we discussed with Mike at that time was to keep the old curve behavior working anyway. Technically, if you don't want to use the handles, you can. If you don't touch the handles, Moho works exactly in the same way AS did in the past.
Now, I think it's a good idea to have the option to hide the handles when using the curvature tool too. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that option probably could be added to the script itself.

Moho curves never were "normal", because they always were optimized for animation. And having bezier handles also optimized for animation is not trivial (and that's mostly why it took 12 versions to finally decide to implement it). What Moho does now is to try to behave in the best way possible to keep the shape consistent when the points are moving (by themselves or through bones). Generally, it works as expected, but sometimes it needs some tweaking.
For me, even considering the few issues bezier could cause, I feel this is one of the features that makes me feel there's no way I could work with version 11 again.

Now, I know every user is different and what works for me could not work for you. I think you should try asking to a scripter if the "hide handles" button could be added to the curvature tool. If that is possible, you will have the software working exactly in the way you want.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby synthsin75 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:15 pm

Here's a quick mod to the curvature tool: https://sites.google.com/site/synthsin/ ... ects=0&d=1

If you disable beziers on the transform points tool, they are also disabled for the curvature tool.
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Re: bezier curve option

Postby Greenlaw » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:23 pm

Oh, cool! Thanks, Wes, that's very generous of you. I'll add the mod to mine and try it when I get the chance. :D

I hope in the future the developers will add the Show Handles button to both tools. I do dislike how some options/buttons are available only to one tool when they are actually useful and relevant for some other tools in Moho. (Examples: Peak and Smooth, Reset Angle for bones and layers, etc.) This forces the user to do a lot of unnecessary clicking and tool-switching. Many of these options should be available in the GUI anytime they're relevant. This will be especially helpful when using a tablet and stylus.
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