My future with Moho

General Moho topics.

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Re: My future with Moho

Postby Greenlaw » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:31 am

Thanks for the tip. I don't typically animate on the iPad but Animation Pro looks fun. Looks kinda like using Puppet in AE but with more FBF capabilities. I downloaded and installed the app on my old Gen 3 iPad Retina today and will post what I think when I get a chance to play with it.

My 10-year-old has been animating on this iPad since she was about six. She's been using the old Animation Desk app (now called Animation Desk Classic,) and the other day I upgraded her to the new version of Animation Desk for iPad. She told me it's a much better program now so I checked it out this afternoon. She's right: the new app has a slicker, more 'professional' UI and it's easier to use. Unlike the original, the new Animation Desk has pressure sensitive support for Adjonit and Wacom styli, and it supports multi-touch.

IMO, the new Animation Desk is still pretty basic though: it only supports 2 1/2 layers (FG, MG, and a static BG,) and can only export movie files (no image sequences.) I wouldn't use it for real production work but it's fine if you want a mobile tool for quickly doodling animation ideas. I disliked using the old Animation Desk but will probably play around with the new version just for fun.

BTW, the Windows version of Animation Desk is basically a port of the old 'Classic' iOS version and it shouldn't be confused with the new iOS version. The Windows version is okay and really just a 'toy' app. Besides, on a Windows tablet, there are better options for bitmap FBF animation.

I do like to use the iPad for sketching though. Procreate has been my favorite drawing app for years. IMO, it's still got the best multi-touch UI I've used on any platform--it's just so fluid and transparent, I don't have to think about it much when I'm drawing. I like using Procreate with the original Wacom Intuos Companion Stylus but the newer WICS2 is kinda awful in any app. Nowadays I mostly just use my fingers to draw with on the iPad. I understand Procreate is super nice with the latest iPad Pro and Apple Pencil and I'm seriously thinking about upgrading my old iPad gear. (My daughter has pretty much taken it over for her own drawing and animation use anyway.)

As for Moho, I'm not sure I'm interested in seeing it on an iPad. I love using Moho on a desktop and on my Windows-based Wacom tablet computer, but it seems like it would be a pain to shuttle animation assets back and forth between an iPad and desktop and network. Sure it's easy to move a few still images around but it can become a big hassle for lots of image sequences, large bitmap images, audio and other production assets. (As I discovered when helping my daughter export her Animaton Desk scenes from the iPad so she could edit them and mix audio on her regular laptop computer.)

That said, I would love to see Moho on the desktop get better multi-touch and freehand drawing support like I get from my iPad.
Last edited by Greenlaw on Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby lwaxana » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:55 pm

I'd like to express my enthusiasm for an open source animation program from Mike. :mrgreen:
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby drumlug13 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:47 pm

chucky wrote:I wonder if a kickstarter to allow Mike buy Moho back off Smith Micro could work.
I wonder how much they would want to take it off their hands?
Probably a stupid idea...


Maybe, but maybe not Chucky. At this point I would definitely donate if for no other reason than to send a message. There's not a whole lot of communication coming from SM. I'm not much for Twitter but there seems to be nothing but info for upgrade sales there. On the Facebook page you can't see the posts by visitors anymore. You can still post a question but now it has to be reviewed. Nothing fishy about that on its own but add it all up and it feels like the user's community has been left in the dark.

Taking into consideration that this forum is an extension of Mike's blog, I've wondered if maybe the current team felt it would be rude to participate here? But the one post that someone from the new team did post seemed to be received well. And Mike has said that the forum isn't going anywhere. Seems like feeding more info to the LM forum would be a good thing.

This thread is nearly 5 months old now. If they are not communicating about Moho's future here fine, but why not on the other social media? I've never considered switching to a new animation program before, but after this long you have to wonder if it may be the wise thing to do.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby JoelMayer » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:56 am

I just posted on their Facebook Wall below the most recent post about how a lot of us feel at the moment about the software and that i really would wish for more engagement coming from Smith Micro. Probably pointless to do such posts but i guess i was in a ranty mode and i just find it really frustrating thinking about how far MoHo has come over the last few years and how great the pace developed regarding update cycles and upgrades with actual useful features! But it was in part also due to the fact, that developers like Mike or the product managers were talking and listening to the community and actually knew something about animation and about the people who were working in this field. Very disappointing. MoHo plays such an integral part here at the company i work for, since i use it for creating animated content for internal and external communications and it allows me to do have a high turnover. Furthermore its (or was) really one of the few 2D software where i still had the feeling, it's actually making progress and going somewhere and where the developers were sympathetic to me. Toon Boom probably makes more money with Storyboard Pro than Harmony, they haven't updated their software in years and it became more bloated over time. Typical monopolistic behaviour. Adobe and Animate CC probably had the best intentions but just won't give it a real shot and probably won't give in the resources and people it would need to truly overhaul Flash and get it up to date with other solutions out there...

Really a shame, everytime i open the software it's bittersweet for me now especially since i know there really isn't much of an alternative out there on the level that MoHo is.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby Psmith » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:34 pm

Mike has not been overly vocal on his views on Moho, specifically - (it's current state, what he would have liked to do with it or whether he has any interest in the continued development of it).

My guess is that he is legally limited in what he can say, due to his current employment responsibilities and his past agreement with Smith Micro.

Having worked on this project for so long, I would imagine he has a bittersweet relationship with the software - and with the community, as well.

Mike did mention the possibility of discussing what animation software should be. I'm not sure there will ever be a consensus on what the ideal would look like.

However, let's look at the current state of affairs: we all have use for Moho - we all like working with Moho - we all see that there is no competition (not really) for Moho in the animation software marketplace, today.

Can these attitudes keep the software from perishing? Can the users, themselves, keep Smith Micro's head above water? I, personally, would like to direct my attention to demonstrating the superior animation results (of the "classical" variety) that Moho is capable of producing.

But, I hesitate to do so - due to the uncertain state of affairs that exist today - which include: the lack of Mike's involvement, the current unstable state of the software, and some un-knowable and unmentionable financial statistics.

If we look at the situation with a historical eye, most of the best software that has "passed away" did so "by natural causes" - (i.e. lack of economical success) - ending with their best bits being eaten by ravenous, predatory Big Fish.

What is the practical means by which we can prevent Moho from following this path and ending its existence so sadly?

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Re: My future with Moho

Postby JaMike » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:22 pm

Let's take a step back, Chicken Little... :)

Look at the facts: There is a new Product Manager and a new programming team, and they were advertising for a new programmer too. This is hardly the act of a company that is dumping a product. Of course it will take time for them to get up to speed. They haven't promised a new version and not delivered. Cut them some slack.

Already people are talking about making an open-source Moho - puh-lease! Look at Synfig - unusable and abandoned. Only OpenToonz has any hope of survival. Add some Moho features to that and we have something to discuss. But that community is so full of noobs that they even managed to convince coders to make it 32-bit friendly - this is 2017! Who the heck would want to run a professional piece of software on a 32-bit OS? You can't even buy them any more. Until OT gets some leadership, it will keep floundering around directionless. Although I do know someone who switched from Harmony to Toonz Premium, so the original developers seem to have their act in order.

Speaking of Harmony, if you think Smith Micro is neglecting Moho, just see what Toon Boom is doing to Harmony! Or rather, not doing. It looks like they've stopped development on it. No Harmony 15, just a pointless asset management program and a new logo. Their programmers are leaving in droves, it's all sales people at TB now, and they're all new people from outside the industry, they know nothing about animation.

TV Paint is the only company that isn't hurting at the moment, but if you can't draw, their software isn't for you. Someone mentioned Animation Paper, but that ain't going to happen after the failed crowdfunding. And again it's drawing-intensive anyway.

But ranting by itself won't help. If you want an open-source Moho, support OpenToonz, get over there and shout about features. Clearly, at the moment, the loudest voices get the features. If you want software that will be supported properly for the foreseeable future, use TV Paint. They've been around forever and keep innovating.

If you want to keep using Moho - keep using Moho! At least until there are real danger signs. Toon Boom are the ones with "dead man walking" hanging round their necks, even their die-hard fans are questioning their future. Smith Micro are nowhere near that bad.

Sorry for the strong words, but all this doom-and-gloom will become a self-fulfilling prophecy if we do nothing to counter it.

Have some faith. Now, group hug everyone. :D
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby GCharb » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:31 pm

Okay, I stayed away from this thread for the last couples of month, but I am about to start a major 2D animation project, so I thought I'd add my thoughts to this.

First of, many many thanks to you Mike for your hard work over the years, you were nothing short than an inspiration to us all, again, thank you so very much!

As for the rest, JaMike has a point, there are no signs of SM letting Moho development down, so no real need to bang our heads on the wall.

This said, I understand that this sort of news would render some of the users nervous, it does me too, I do advanced cut-out animation for most of my 2D work, so far Moho is the best at that, at least the best I have seen, and I am not thrilled that the whole team is changing, that SM gives no info on the future of Moho, I hate poking in the dark, especially with my bread and butter.

I will evaluate the latest version of Moho and see if the current level of development is up to what I need for my upcoming projects, if it is, then I will continue using Moho, if not, then I might look elsewhere.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby JoelMayer » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:13 pm

Well, at least Smith Micro just posted this on Twitter asking for future Suggestions of MoHo:

http://my.smithmicro.com/software-sugge ... ce=twitter

I think it's a nice gesture of them :)
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby synthsin75 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:35 pm

JoelMayer wrote:Well, at least Smith Micro just posted this on Twitter asking for future Suggestions of MoHo:

http://my.smithmicro.com/software-sugge ... ce=twitter

I think it's a nice gesture of them :)


Stuffit is a "graphics product"? :lol:
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby Lost Marble » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:37 am

synthsin75 wrote:Stuffit is a "graphics product"? :lol:


No, but I wouldn't hold that against them. While not a graphics product, Stuffit is a product from the "Santa Cruz team". There have been lots of product acquisitions and mergers and such over the years. Stuffit is from the original group, and over time the group morphed into primarily a graphics team. But Stuffit kept chugging along all that time.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby synthsin75 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:10 pm

Lost Marble wrote:
synthsin75 wrote:Stuffit is a "graphics product"? :lol:


No, but I wouldn't hold that against them. While not a graphics product, Stuffit is a product from the "Santa Cruz team". There have been lots of product acquisitions and mergers and such over the years. Stuffit is from the original group, and over time the group morphed into primarily a graphics team. But Stuffit kept chugging along all that time.


Ah, that makes a bit more sense then. It just became a "graphics product" as the odd man out.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby DarthFurby » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:59 am

Wow, just found this thread. Sad to hear that you've moved on from Moho. I think the market for 2d animation software has been declining for years so it's understandable. I wish you all the best. Moho was and is my favorite animation software.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby onlinedelivery » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:24 pm

DarthFurby wrote:Wow, just found this thread. Sad to hear that you've moved on from Moho. I think the market for 2d animation software has been declining for years so it's understandable. I wish you all the best. Moho was and is my favorite animation software.


The market for the software may be declining but I teach and in my own little world (with kids coming from families that work for large software and gaming companies) I've just had a new resurgence in 2D interest. Things go in cycles and 2D is the "different thing" now.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby jayfaker » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:42 pm

Is 2D dying? I mean, there still are plenty of 2D kids shows being created (mostly in toon boom). And motion graphics has been carrying a bit of the 2D banner for a while. I don't see 2D expanding, but I don't know if it's going to die. As for cyclical trends, though, that's a scary place to be. Look at stop motion. Every generation there are film students that "discover" stop motion animation and want to do it because it is different, but even the 2 "successful" stop motion studios out there are struggling to keep it alive.

...Who knows, I guess if Disney labs finally makes a cell-shading + hand painted image solution (a la Paperman) simple, cheap, and available to the masses, I guess that could kill 2D. But 2D, when very simple, can also be very cheap. I don't see that going away.
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Re: My future with Moho

Postby stefan » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:58 pm

Lost Marble wrote:Maybe you and Victor and I, and some other folks here should talk about what an open source animation program would look like.

Should you pull through with that project, count me in. I'll be happy to contribute. Maybe we can get Larry on board too. :wink:
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